Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you think?

Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

Sea Dog said:

I wouldn't count on it. Especially if there is an effective strike component associated with the BG. But what does the above here have to do with Kilo's using SAM's? If a Kilo in the littorals are surfacing and using SAM's, it's dead. The conditions or circumstances are of no importance. And that is truly one of the most limiting factors in being a diesel crew. Once detected, your chances of survival are virtually nil. You simply don't have the speed or endurance to effectively escape.

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Who says that those SAMs can't be launched while submerged, now and in the future, considering that the S(ubmarine)LCM & S(ubmarine)LMMs already exist?



Detection doesn't mean 100% probability of destruction, even with modern weapons.

Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

BLUEJACKET said:

Who says that those SAMs can't be launched while submerged, now and in the future, considering that the S(ubmarine)LCM & S(ubmarine)LMMs already exist?

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Detection doesn't mean 100% probability of destruction, even with modern weapons.

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OK. So what do Kilo captains currently have in their disposal for use against helos? And these weapons are completely different in scope and concept from mines and cruise missiles. So what are Kilo skippers using?

Detection certainly isn't 100% probability of a kill. That's true. But detection in today's age, certainly means very low probability of survival. Especially in an SSK.

Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

Sea Dog said:

OK. So what do Kilo captains currently have in their disposal for use against helos? And these weapons are completely different in scope and concept from mines and cruise missiles. So what are Kilo skippers using?
Detection certainly isn't 100% probability of a kill. That's true. But detection in today's age, certainly means very low probability of survival. Especially in an SSK.

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six modified SA-N-8 "Needle"-model anti-aircraft missiles, and ...
eight SA-N-5 "Arrow" standby anti-aircraft missiles.

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Rule # 1 in a fight/war: do not underestimate your opponent. I am no submariner, but I heard that a decoy torpedo can prevent the launching sub from being discovered, so what are the odds of it being detected, much less sunk?

Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

SA-N-5 is the naval version of Strela MANPAD, from same family as 9K32 Strela-1/2. The SA-N-8 is improved 9K94 Strela-3 MANPAD. Both of these are pretty old and have been replaced by naval version of 9K38 Igla-M, SA-N-10.

The Russian Kilo SSK's are reported to be equipped with 8 SAM's. However I've not heard of underwater-launch capability for these SAMs. They have to surface to launch them.

The British Vickers company once developed a vairant of the Blowpipe missile, SLAM (submarine launched airflight missile). They're mounted on an elevated module with 6 x SAMs and 1 x optical director. You could elevate them from the conning tower and fire from periscope depth.

The French was rumored to be developing an under-water launch version of Polyphem, but the project has been cancelled.

Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

BLUEJACKET said:

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Rule # 1 in a fight/war: do not underestimate your opponent. I am no submariner, but I heard that a decoy torpedo can prevent the launching sub from being discovered, so what are the odds of it being detected, much less sunk?

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The main problem I see with an underwater launch of a man pad AAW missile is target acquisition. How on earth can a sub acquire an airborne target from under water? The periscope?

The USN never understimate its opponent. Why do you think they lease the Gotland SSKs? To know how fight SSKs.

By the way launching a decoy torpedo, or any torpedo for that matter, lights you up on sonar, which increases your chances of being discovered.

Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

IDonT said:

The main problem I see with an underwater launch of a man pad AAW missile is target acquisition. How on earth can a sub acquire an airborne target from under water? The periscope?

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You don't need to engage the target is the sky is full of enemies, just put the missiles on auto seek IR mode... which brings up a good point since the QW-3 looks like it can be jamed into a container and ejected from the SSK tubes...

Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

Hi Swimmer,

You mean something like this?.....



Looks like it's a feasible idea. I wasn't a submariner myself, so I wouldn't have a clue as how it would actually be used in a tactical situation. As far as I know, no SSK uses anything similar. And this is only a concept that Raytheon is trying to get the USN to look at for use on the Virginia SSN. Adeptitus is correct that Kilo's need to be on the surface to use their shoulder launched systems. And that's the rub. Submarines are dead in a situation like that. I don't care if it's an American sub, Russian sub, Chinese sub, or British sub. And that's how a system like the one above may be useful. But until someone actually invests in a system like that, and actively deploys it, subs don't have a chance of survival against a good ASW helo that has you hooked.

Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

IDonT said:

The main problem I see with an underwater launch of a man pad AAW missile is target acquisition. How on earth can a sub acquire an airborne target from under water? The periscope?
By the way launching a decoy torpedo, or any torpedo for that matter, lights you up on sonar, which increases your chances of being discovered.

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I would have to talk to some submariners about all these arguments, but I can guess that in the not too distant future those missiles will be able to find their targets without external guidance. Helicopters are noisy and easy to spot by sensors.

Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

BLUEJACKET said:

I would have to talk to some submariners about all these arguments, but I can guess that in the not too distant future those missiles will be able to find their targets without external guidance. Helicopters are noisy and easy to spot by sensors.

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Launching anything underwater that is going to either act like torpedoe, or rise to and broach the surface with any type of speed (like a missile-be it anti-air or anti-surface) is going to announce to every other sub, vessel, or aircraft in the area that is listening, where the launching submarine is. An SSK will not be able to move quickly enough away to avoid getting nailed in most cases IMHO, if there is any type of active search going on.

Re: Well since this exercise was aimed at dealing with Chinese SSKs, what do you thin

Jeff Head said:

Launching anything underwater that is going to either act like torpedoe, or rise to and broach the surface with any type of speed (like a missile-be it anti-air or anti-surface) is going to announce to every other sub, vessel, or aircraft in the area that is listening, where the launching submarine is. An SSK will not be able to move quickly enough away to avoid getting nailed in most cases IMHO, if there is any type of active search going on.

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That will depend on the distances involved. If the SSK is far enough it can use the decoy, stop its own movement or

... make a radical change in course, speed and depth.

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, wait for the search to focus on the decoy and then either leave the area quietly or sit it out.





Some of this been around/modernized since WWII!