Weakness of the PLAN

All very interesting responses and staying on topic is great!

What do you think china's short term goal is?

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I don't know for sure I think that the PRC wants to be a "Super Power".Ecnomically and militarlly strong. In order ,in my opinion, to be a Super Power a country needs a blue water Navy. The PLAN is not a blue water navy. Shipping lanes need to be protected and kept open. Commerce needs to be proctected. That's what a blue water Navy can do.

Royal navy doesnt have nuclear powered surface ships. Their endurance at sea isn't really much different than what PLAN ships have.

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No the Brits don't. The only nuclear surface ships the USN has are CVN's. All other surface ships are conventionally powered. The USN retired all of it's other surface nuclear ships some years ago. Why? One reason was a lack of nuke techs to take care of them.

And why is that? Because the rest of the world, including royal navy, doesn't play a world policeman who pushes its interests everywhere in the world. Yes, of course US economy allows for USN to be that strong and i'm sure most countries would do the same thing if they had the same power/technology but fact is - you use a force for the goals you set to yourself

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Ther stated mission of the US Navy is to control the sea. Keep the sea lanes open for commerece. Maintain a naval presence in time of crisis.(power projection) That policy has been in effect for over 100 years.

Sure, in 50 years time things may and probably will be different but so many things can change by then its ludicrous to rush it. Why would china push an expensive true blue water navy until their economy can support it? And right now it still can't. When china's economy is as powerful as US, then they will have a blue water navy to compare with USN.

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As I previous stated to be a true "Super Power" in my opinion a large powerful country such as the PRC needs a true blue water Navy. And I think that in the future the PRC will. Now is the time for the PRC to look to the future and start building. And I know they are.

Well, there has to be a reason for lacking a decent ASW capability. Yes, probably because that China has yet to develop a decent ASW capability, but if US subs were such a big problem, wouldn't the PLAN be frantic about getting a decent ASW capability from Russia? In my opinion, yes, the US has many subs, but they are all over the world plus production of US subs has hit rock bottom since the Cold War ended. So maybe the PLAN estimated how many subs the US could put in the Taiwan arena and decided that it wasn't a massive threat. The bigger threats would be the aircraft carriers and their escorts. The best way to counter them would be through submarines (surface ships would be good, but the PLAN has very limited air defense ships in its arsenal).

As I previous stated to be a true "Super Power" in my opinion a large powerful country such as the PRC needs a true blue water Navy. And I think that in the future the PRC will. Now is the time for the PRC to look to the future and start building. And I know they are.

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As long as the US does not publish yet another "Chinese Military Report" stating China threat by building a blue water navy

Compared to its ground forces, the development of Chinese air and naval power have been fast. The PLAN is building new ships as fast as it can. The number of new ships commissioned each year is not limited by China's economic or shipbuilding capability, but the PLAN's ability to train ecoungh qualified staffs to operate these ships in such a short time.

China definitely recognise the importance of developing a blue water navy. Still remember the PLAN's "three step" develpment plan? The first step is to modernise its fleet including new ships and subs by 2000. This was achieved by the commission of Luhu, Luhai and Sovremenny class destroyers, as well as Jiangwei-II frigates and Song subs. The second step is to build an aircraft carrier oriented battle group that can reach the second island chain by 2020. The third step will be to build a true blue water global navy comparable to the USN in capabilities by 2050. There is still long way to go but China is on the right track, as long as her economic development can support this strategy.

bd popeye said:

I think that the PRC wants to be a "Super Power".Ecnomically and militarlly strong. In order ,in my opinion, to be a Super Power a country needs a blue water Navy. The PLAN is not a blue water navy. Shipping lanes need to be protected and kept open. Commerce needs to be proctected. That's what a blue water Navy can do.

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I get the feeling you're trying to apply USN's mission to other navies. The number of shipping lanes and the amount of traffic all over the world is so huge even USN would need to be some 5 times larger to monitor and protect it fully. USN mission, just like whole US armed forces, is to project power, absolutely, but also it is making sure it can fight multiple wars at a time, at different parts of the world. If US economy can support it, US will always try to be stronger than several other countries combined. USN was build for world domination.

What i'm saying is that you can have a blue water navy, able to engage part of the forces of likes of USN without the need to control the world seas. Yes, such navy would be able to sail across the world if needed, have all the logistics support that a blue water navy has, but quantity wise, a blue water navy does not need a dozen carriers, 50 nuclear subs, 100+ destroyers etc. Quality yes, ability coming from that quality, yes. But sheer numbers for world seas control - that has little to do with the core defintion of a blue water navy. China's navy needs to be able to deny enemies any acces to mainland, it needs to protect and monitor surrounding seas and needs an expeditionary force if long strike missions are needed in indian and/or pacific ocean. That's it. And by 2050 it's quite possible that will be achieved. What china's navy doesn't need is to have fleets cruising in almost every sea of every ocean on the world. Numbers really come to play only if you're planning to wage war against certain enemy. So china should calculate - what kind of numbers it needs if it wants to wage war with taiwan, what numbers against japan, or what numbers against US.

bd popeye said:

As I previous stated to be a true "Super Power" in my opinion a large powerful country such as the PRC needs a true blue water Navy. And I think that in the future the PRC will. Now is the time for the PRC to look to the future and start building. And I know they are.

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I guess that's the issue here. The definition and mission of a 'super power'. We just have different views there. In my opinion no country should want to be a military super power like US is today, it is just too costly and too dangerous and chances are that ultimately it'll come around and bite US on the ass. But to go on about that would be going into politics and moderators would go mad .

On an another note, just what is the second chain of islands? Which islands are we talking about there?

Totoro said:

The definition and mission of a 'super power'. We just have different views there. In my opinion no country should want to be a military super power like US is today, it is just too costly and too dangerous and chances are that ultimately it'll come around and bite US on the ass.

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this is a fair view, especially considering american foreign policy already has to some degree come around to 'bite it in the ass' (i.e. world opinion of USA). Of course it would be impossible to know what the world would look like today without the US to counter Soviet expasionism during the cold war......

but more on to topic.
Do you think China is or is not striving towards military super power status?

Totoro you have very well thought out responses. Excellent.

What i'm saying is that you can have a blue water navy, able to engage part of the forces of likes of USN without the need to control the world seas. Yes, such navy would be able to sail across the world if needed, have all the logistics support that a blue water navy has, but quantity wise, a blue water navy does not need a dozen carriers, 50 nuclear subs, 100+ destroyers etc. Quality yes, ability coming from that quality, yes. But sheer numbers for world seas control - that has little to do with the core defintion of a blue water navy

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I understand. So your idea is to have a navy that could meet challenges as they arise without playing world policeman? Correct?..That's power projection to some extent on a case by case basis. Similar to the UK and France.

On an another note, just what is the second chain of islands? Which islands are we talking about there

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Could he be refering to the Spratley Islands near the Philippines.

The definition and mission of a 'super power'. We just have different views there. In my opinion no country should want to be a military super power like US is today, it is just too costly and too dangerous and chances are that ultimately it'll come around and bite US on the ass.

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Agreed! 100%

Excellent responses all! I love it when we stay on topic!

walter said:

this is a fair view, especially considering american foreign policy already has to some degree come around to 'bite it in the ass' (i.e. world opinion of USA). Of course it would be impossible to know what the world would look like today without the US to counter Soviet expasionism during the cold war......

but more on to topic.
Do you think China is or is not striving towards military super power status?

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long term, China is striving toward military super power status. Look at what China did with its space mission. It's clearly doing this as a matter of prestige. It wants to be treated as a super power. In order to do so, it will strive to build its military to that point.

I have some questions about ASW. What are the key weapons used in ASW warfare? And normally in a fleet, the ASW warships are destroyers, right?

FriedRiceNSpice said:

I have some questions about ASW. What are the key weapons used in ASW warfare? And normally in a fleet, the ASW warships are destroyers, right?

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Well, the Type 23's are frigates and they are pretty nasty.

Why haven't the PLAN invested in the developement of a new ASW destroyer? Currently, all the are investing in are anti-air destroyers and guided-missile destroyers.