USN fearful of PLAN subs

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Totoro

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President said:
how the submarine fight with aircraft carrier? any tactics?
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Unless the carrier group is located and that location is somehow conveyed to the subs without being intercepted and without subs location itself being compromised, then the subs have a chance. Of course, the datalink to the subs must be kept, since the carrier group is not likely to be staying at one place for hours at a time, just waiting for (relatively) slow subs to reach them.

IF all that location and targeting stuff can be done without revealing subs location, a battery run attack force of some dozen or more subs can, in my opinion, seriously endanger a lone carrier group. More likely than not no sub would survive such an attack and get to go home but at the same time, such a 'brave' suicide attack could result in some hits, perhaps even a sinking of some elements of the carrier group. (anyone know how many torpedo hits would be needed to sink a nimitz class carrier?)
 
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IDonT

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President said:
how the submarine fight with aircraft carrier? any tactics?
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CVBG, especially the USN's move very fast (around 500 miles a day). To keep up at this high tempo you need a SSN.

SSK's are very quite but they are also very slow. The best way to used them is to station them on probable paths of a carrier and ambush it when it happens to be in range.

SSN's can keep up with a carrier, but you need to have a very high "quite" speed in order to remain undetected. The best way is to predict the path of based on its last heading and bearing and get there first. Then you can either fire anti-ship missiles or use torpedos.

The Russians have dedicated anti-carrier SSGN in its fleet. The latest are the Oscar II class (same class as the Kurst). These subs carry 24 SS-19 Shipwreck missiles with a range of about 500km. Over the horizon targeting is either done by one of the Bear maritime survellance craft or satellites.
 
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IDonT

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Totoro said:
(anyone know how many torpedo hits would be needed to sink a nimitz class carrier?)
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That is hard to say. I know the US just sunk the USS America to see how well it can take damage.(largest warship sto be sunk since the YAMATO).

Punching hole through the under water hull of a carrier will not do much. The carrier is made up of many water tight bulk heads. If enough torpedoes hit one side of the ship, it may cause the carrier to list and mission kill it. However, counterflooding can always fix the list but the carrier will be out of commision for several months.

The ideal way is to detonate a torpedo under the keel (harder said than done). Doing this will break the back bone of the ship and its own weight will split it in two. Test have been done on this against a Spruance class destroyer and the broke in tow and sank within minutes.
 
Dongfeng

Dongfeng

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like germany in wwII, has a weaker surface fleet than it's opponent. so it uses subs
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This is a traditional tactic for countries with mass land forces and relatively little experience in the sea. The Germans tried it, and then Soviet Union did the exactly same thing in the cold war. Such a strategy seems to be attractive in short term (less expensive, relatively simple technology compared to air carrier battle group, and yet lethal), but its effectiveness in long term is doubtful.

In the early 1990s I read an interview with then the chief of the PLA Navy. He admitted a navy that heavily relies on a single type of platform, such as submarine, would not work. He regarded that China should develop a more "balanced" navy with sub, surface combatants, air carriers, land-based aviation, etc. He believed that only a balanced, true blue-water navy could support China's maritime strategy.

I don't know if the current planners for the PLAN still stick to this development strategy.
 
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Totoro

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IDonT said:
SSK's are very quite but they are also very slow. The best way to used them is to station them on probable paths of a carrier and ambush it when it happens to be in range.
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Hm, i used the very same idea for my hollywood style over the top scenario of china vs taiwan and us...but thought it'd be kinda too unrealistic to pull off in real world. But you're saying that's a valid tactic? That subs can locate a moving carrier group early enough to group and prepare an attack? From how far could a decent passive sonar detect a carrier group? Still, one would imagine a rather huge network of dormant subs would be needed for that, keeping in mind a strike force needs to stick together to have any chance against the carrier group when attacking. While China has enough subs to do such an attack i don't think it has enough of them for locating. I would assume that US carriers wouldn't use the fastest, most straighforward route to the combat theater, for the very same reason.

Also, how hard/easy it is for a sub to just float still in the middle of the ocean? Doesnt that require some constant bouyancy corrections, however small they are, since fins wouldn't be useful at zero speed? And flushing air/water tanks is one of noiser things a sub can do, isn't it?
 
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IDonT

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Totoro said:
Hm, i used the very same idea for my hollywood style over the top scenario of china vs taiwan and us...but thought it'd be kinda too unrealistic to pull off in real world. But you're saying that's a valid tactic? That subs can locate a moving carrier group early enough to group and prepare an attack? From how far could a decent passive sonar detect a carrier group? Still, one would imagine a rather huge network of dormant subs would be needed for that, keeping in mind a strike force needs to stick together to have any chance against the carrier group when attacking. While China has enough subs to do such an attack i don't think it has enough of them for locating. I would assume that US carriers wouldn't use the fastest, most straighforward route to the combat theater, for the very same reason.

Also, how hard/easy it is for a sub to just float still in the middle of the ocean? Doesnt that require some constant bouyancy corrections, however small they are, since fins wouldn't be useful at zero speed? And flushing air/water tanks is one of noiser things a sub can do, isn't it?
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A carrier group is relatively noisy. The main problem is getting your submarine assets to where they are without comprimising them. As I said, one of the main flaws of SSK is its lack of endurance, a problem compounded at higher speeds.


Don't forget, USN carriers always have an attendant SSN escort or two.
 
BKulan

BKulan

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i wonder if it's possible for the PLAN to setup a huge hydrophonic/sonar system in the pacific? would've definitely made it easier for them to track movements of fleets without risking ships.

maybe they could build small, lightly armed radar ships or smaller subs?
 
MIGleader

MIGleader

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having subs ambush US carrier is a bad idea. have a sub creen set up along a few surface ships to block off the the US ships. As long as they don't fire the first shot, the US ships are forbidden to shoot you. if they enter chinese waters, you are allowed to shoot them.
 
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IDonT

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BKulan said:
i wonder if it's possible for the PLAN to setup a huge hydrophonic/sonar system in the pacific? would've definitely made it easier for them to track movements of fleets without risking ships.

maybe they could build small, lightly armed radar ships or smaller subs?
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They certainly can. The US has them already. The most famous one was the SOSUS (I think thats the name), a series of sonar embedded on the ocean floor between the waters of Greenland, Iceland, and UK. They were used to listen for Soviet subs so the US always knows who is on the Atlantic ocean.
 
BKulan

BKulan

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wouldn't that be extremely expensive considering that there is a whole lot of sea to watch?

maybe that earthquake warning system in indian ocean isn't only seismic activity detection equipment but also a sonar system (would be a good cover)? anyone know which country gave most money to that project.
 
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