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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Also to recover this. Recoil energy isn’t what I think you are making it out as.
The energy of release is via the gas the bullet is light so the Newtonian aspect is limited. I mean ~140 grains of bullet is propelled down the barrel vs a vs 58,100 grains of rifle and 200 lbs of soldier.
It’s like an Train trying to push a cruise ship out of port.
The cartridge contains 80,000 psi of pressure as peak during firing but the cartridge’s internal volume is small and the pressure isn’t just trying to push in one direction, it only exists at full pressure for a set of micro seconds. Well the max of the rifle and shooter are larger.
The propellant burn released the chemical energy of the round. That chemical burn is the transition from a solid state to a gas that gas and its expansion is harvested by the rifle.
In a Bolt action rifle the felt recoil is direct through the rifle as once the bolt is locked the whole system is rigid. The release is only via the end of the muzzle. Once the bullet is fired the ignition heats the cartridge the brass or steel or polymer softens and expands the bullet is now basically a moveable obstruction and the gas pushes it down the barrel. this is the same physics as a champagne cork. The gas expansion can even be used against recoil via design of a muzzle break that will channel the gas release counter to the rearward momentum. At the cost of being louder.

In semi automatic or automatic rifles the bolt “floats”. It’s suspended in a channel by springs.
like a bolt action the bolt head has locking lugs and the chamber has locking teeth into which the lugs lock. The lock is simply the bolt head having cammed into place.
Unlike in a bolt action where the action is unlocked manually. The automatic system uses gases released in the firing to in this case actuate a piston once the pressure has reached a set peek point and the bullet has passed the gas port. Once the Piston pushes against the bolt key. The Bolt carrier group is pushed rearward as this happens the bolt is partially unlocked, the pressure in the cartridge pushing against the bolt face now starts to rotate the bolt and it’s lugs in their grooves completing the process of Unlocking the bolt. The momentum will now push the bolt carrier group rearward once the operation has opened. After a set distance the cartridge will be expelled with a mechanical assist by the extractor which rides on the Bolt head and will be actuated by a structure built into the receiver housing. With help of the extractor and the residual pressure inside the case, said case will now be propelled clear of the weapon.
The bolt carrier group riding on momentum is still pushing backwards against spring pressure as it travels. Basically this system is a piston pushing a piston.
The full recoil of the round is softened along the way as the mechanical actions bleed off energy and the cartridge is expelled well still having residual pressure. The bullet was directed with the systems peak pressure but the mechanism is absorbing off excess energy.
Felt recoil will not occur until the BCG has maxed out it’s travel, the spring(s in the case of the MCX) has reached maximum compression and the energy of the shot has transferred through said spring into the receiver and then the shoulder. There is other energy from the firing but the muzzle break or in this case suppressor contains the bulk of it and it’s release is lower than the peak which expelled the bullet.
During this operation the gas pressure has been mechanically harvested to fire the bullet, open the gas piston, unlock the bolt, propel the mass of the BCG against a the springs, assist in ejection of the spent cartridge and reset the trigger hammer. The springs in the system are acting as shock absorbers. Once they max out the last residual kinetic energy is transferred via the receiver and stock to the shooter. But as this happens something else takes place the BCG now shifts and rides forward on the spring pressure the shock of this inversion causes the rifle now to move forward just as it was moving backwards. The only question is which is stronger. It’s a bit like a mass dampener.

In constant recoil systems like the Ultimax 100 the springs are tuned such that the BCG never actually maxes out rearward momentum stops in mid travel and then moves forward inverting the movement.
in Ballanced recoil systems like the AEK series. As the bolt moves rearward a counter mass moves forward. So as the BCG maxes out travel a second counter mass does the same.


Now pound for pound round for round the MCX in its 5.56x45mm version is considered a softer shooting rifle than similar competition like the HK 416. Most military rifles are over gassed for reliability in adverse conditions as a rule. Meaning that their gas systems are designed to allow more gas into the piston chamber than needed to unlock the bolt. As such the bolt moves backwards in it’s cycle faster than it needs to. If you look over this rundown what that means is that the bolt is unlocked sooner well the bullet is still in a higher pressure point during firing. The bolt is then forced back at higher speed and maxes out sooner transferring its energy faster.
Piston guns are especially notorious for this as the piston gas chamber can only contain so much pressure. Well “Internal piston” aka Directed Impingement system have basically a straw that has a larger volume of space before the gas key tap at the end is pushed back with enough pressure to unlock the bolt.
Suppressors compound it farther as they trap gasses at the muzzle. And basically add length to the barrel.
AR15’s history is a perfect example of this principle at work as early issues with M16 were caused by an improper propellant used in the rifle with corrosive effects eroding the gas port allowing more gas into the gas tube increasing rate of fire, felt recoil creating jams and breaking parts. To counter this along with chime lining chambers, barrels, gas tubes and more a weighted buffer was added to the recoil system dampening momentum.

An adjustable piston system like the MCX allows the shooter the choice of a faster more sharp cycle better suited for poor conditions or venting more gas reducing the press on the piston allowing the chamber pressure to be less when the bolt unlocks allowing a more graduated cycle.
So I disagree with your assertion.
 

Abominable

Senior Member
Registered Member
Also to recover this. Recoil energy isn’t what I think you are making it out as.
The energy of release is via the gas the bullet is light so the Newtonian aspect is limited. I mean ~140 grains of bullet is propelled down the barrel vs a vs 58,100 grains of rifle and 200 lbs of soldier.
It’s like an Train trying to push a cruise ship out of port.
The cartridge contains 80,000 psi of pressure as peak during firing but the cartridge’s internal volume is small and the pressure isn’t just trying to push in one direction, it only exists at full pressure for a set of micro seconds. Well the max of the rifle and shooter are larger.
The propellant burn released the chemical energy of the round. That chemical burn is the transition from a solid state to a gas that gas and its expansion is harvested by the rifle.
In a Bolt action rifle the felt recoil is direct through the rifle as once the bolt is locked the whole system is rigid. The release is only via the end of the muzzle. Once the bullet is fired the ignition heats the cartridge the brass or steel or polymer softens and expands the bullet is now basically a moveable obstruction and the gas pushes it down the barrel. this is the same physics as a champagne cork. The gas expansion can even be used against recoil via design of a muzzle break that will channel the gas release counter to the rearward momentum. At the cost of being louder.

In semi automatic or automatic rifles the bolt “floats”. It’s suspended in a channel by springs.
like a bolt action the bolt head has locking lugs and the chamber has locking teeth into which the lugs lock. The lock is simply the bolt head having cammed into place.
Unlike in a bolt action where the action is unlocked manually. The automatic system uses gases released in the firing to in this case actuate a piston once the pressure has reached a set peek point and the bullet has passed the gas port. Once the Piston pushes against the bolt key. The Bolt carrier group is pushed rearward as this happens the bolt is partially unlocked, the pressure in the cartridge pushing against the bolt face now starts to rotate the bolt and it’s lugs in their grooves completing the process of Unlocking the bolt. The momentum will now push the bolt carrier group rearward once the operation has opened. After a set distance the cartridge will be expelled with a mechanical assist by the extractor which rides on the Bolt head and will be actuated by a structure built into the receiver housing. With help of the extractor and the residual pressure inside the case, said case will now be propelled clear of the weapon.
The bolt carrier group riding on momentum is still pushing backwards against spring pressure as it travels. Basically this system is a piston pushing a piston.
The full recoil of the round is softened along the way as the mechanical actions bleed off energy and the cartridge is expelled well still having residual pressure. The bullet was directed with the systems peak pressure but the mechanism is absorbing off excess energy.
Felt recoil will not occur until the BCG has maxed out it’s travel, the spring(s in the case of the MCX) has reached maximum compression and the energy of the shot has transferred through said spring into the receiver and then the shoulder. There is other energy from the firing but the muzzle break or in this case suppressor contains the bulk of it and it’s release is lower than the peak which expelled the bullet.
During this operation the gas pressure has been mechanically harvested to fire the bullet, open the gas piston, unlock the bolt, propel the mass of the BCG against a the springs, assist in ejection of the spent cartridge and reset the trigger hammer. The springs in the system are acting as shock absorbers. Once they max out the last residual kinetic energy is transferred via the receiver and stock to the shooter. But as this happens something else takes place the BCG now shifts and rides forward on the spring pressure the shock of this inversion causes the rifle now to move forward just as it was moving backwards. The only question is which is stronger. It’s a bit like a mass dampener.

In constant recoil systems like the Ultimax 100 the springs are tuned such that the BCG never actually maxes out rearward momentum stops in mid travel and then moves forward inverting the movement.
in Ballanced recoil systems like the AEK series. As the bolt moves rearward a counter mass moves forward. So as the BCG maxes out travel a second counter mass does the same.


Now pound for pound round for round the MCX in its 5.56x45mm version is considered a softer shooting rifle than similar competition like the HK 416. Most military rifles are over gassed for reliability in adverse conditions as a rule. Meaning that their gas systems are designed to allow more gas into the piston chamber than needed to unlock the bolt. As such the bolt moves backwards in it’s cycle faster than it needs to. If you look over this rundown what that means is that the bolt is unlocked sooner well the bullet is still in a higher pressure point during firing. The bolt is then forced back at higher speed and maxes out sooner transferring its energy faster.
Piston guns are especially notorious for this as the piston gas chamber can only contain so much pressure. Well “Internal piston” aka Directed Impingement system have basically a straw that has a larger volume of space before the gas key tap at the end is pushed back with enough pressure to unlock the bolt.
Suppressors compound it farther as they trap gasses at the muzzle. And basically add length to the barrel.
AR15’s history is a perfect example of this principle at work as early issues with M16 were caused by an improper propellant used in the rifle with corrosive effects eroding the gas port allowing more gas into the gas tube increasing rate of fire, felt recoil creating jams and breaking parts. To counter this along with chime lining chambers, barrels, gas tubes and more a weighted buffer was added to the recoil system dampening momentum.

An adjustable piston system like the MCX allows the shooter the choice of a faster more sharp cycle better suited for poor conditions or venting more gas reducing the press on the piston allowing the chamber pressure to be less when the bolt unlocks allowing a more graduated cycle.
So I disagree with your assertion.
Apparently I don't know what recoil energy is, but then you say this:

"The energy of release is via the gas the bullet is light so the Newtonian aspect is limited. I mean ~140 grains of bullet is propelled down the barrel vs a vs 58,100 grains of rifle and 200 lbs of soldier."
LOL.

Newton's laws are exactly what determines recoil, in particular the third law. It's high school physics. It's not just the mass of the bullet, but the acceleration. The weight of the person firing the gun is irrelevant as we're talking about the recoil the gun imparts into your shoulder when fired.

Instead of debating physics, I just looked for videos of the XM5 on youtube. This guy shows the recoil difference between the new rifle and an M16.
If America needs mass conscription for a war against China, they're fcked with this rifle. Have you seen the average 19 year old these days?
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
That video is loaded with bad interpretation enough to call it a Big Lie.

Farther what you seem to miss is that M4 is still being retained. The M5 and M250 order as it stands is 250k units that’s enough to cover the Infantry and combat arms portion of the US Army, with other services ordering independently. The US army active force is significantly larger than that. Even without a draft which is a highly unlikely event
To arm the bulk of that M4A1 will be retained non combat MOS and reserves.
Newton's laws are exactly what determines recoil, in particular the third law. It's high school physics. It's not just the mass of the bullet, but the acceleration. The weight of the person firing the gun is irrelevant as we're talking about the recoil the gun imparts into your shoulder when fired.
No it does. A sledgehammer of mass impacting to the chest of a 175 pound man will kill and throw the victim back the same to a 175 ton ship won’t move it. The equivalent and opposite that you want is directed into the BCG that moves backwards but is pushed against the spring pressure and then into the mass of the rifle. Recoil isn’t felt until the BCG hits the back of the receiver. The 10 pounds of a rifle firing a round will dampen the effect more than a 5 pound weapon.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
Seems like they might actually start to make meaningful shipbuilding output. They need to do the same with the Constellation class, but with likely higher number of hulls per year. Otherwise China is just going to bury them as time goes on.
They need to start producing a new destroyer hull ASAP.

Flight III configuration is pushing the DDG-51 design to the limit with little growth capacity left to spare. Either the 12 MW of electrical power (same as Constellation class frigate) is not enough to fit the SPY-3 radar or the design cannot handle the extra weight at the required height. Neither of which was an issue for CVN-79 which is equipped with the SPY-3 (X) /SPY-6 (S) radar combo.
 

SlothmanAllen

New Member
Registered Member
They need to start producing a new destroyer hull ASAP.

Flight III configuration is pushing the DDG-51 design to the limit with little growth capacity left to spare. Either the 12 MW of electrical power (same as Constellation class frigate) is not enough to fit the SPY-3 radar or the design cannot handle the extra weight at the required height. Neither of which was an issue for CVN-79 which is equipped with the SPY-3 (X) /SPY-6 (S) radar combo.
Yeah, they showed a picture of a notional design recently. I am not sure how long it takes like something like that to come to fruition, They need to be building if larger numbers though period. The transition also has to happen quickly, moving from producing 4 Burke's per to year to 4 DDG(X) (or whatever it is called) in as short of time as possible. This doesn't even include support vessels and from what I understand a good number of them are in a sorry state. Oh, and they don't even have a cruiser to replace to Taco's ready to go yet want to remove them! So they need to be pumping out Burke's, developing a new DDG which needs to jump into large production quickly, on top of developing a new Cruiser (are they even doing this currently?) which will need to jump into production in large volume quickly, on top of modernizing their shipyard infrastructure (how did it even get out of date with the budgets they have?), while also producing Virigina subs as fast as they can while developing the Columbia which then has the enter production simultaneously.... Jesus

I think the US has to go for a sort of Build Back Better style deal/investment in military equipment if they want to maintain an edge (I am not even sure that this is possible in the naval realm given China's excellent ship building industry) and address all of those programs I listed above in a timely manner. They need to invest staggering amounts of money to transform their military away from Cold War era to a totally modern force. Also, the time frame for their projects has to be condensed considerably.

Either they return to a Cold War size military and whatever budget that would require today (likely a trillion plus dollars per year), or China will greatly surpass them in a number of areas by the mid 2030s. The only reason they haven't already is because of the staggering advantage the US was able to build up during the Cold War which afforded them time to dick around and waste money, cancel projects for like 25+ years.
 

Andy1974

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yeah, they showed a picture of a notional design recently. I am not sure how long it takes like something like that to come to fruition, They need to be building if larger numbers though period. The transition also has to happen quickly, moving from producing 4 Burke's per to year to 4 DDG(X) (or whatever it is called) in as short of time as possible. This doesn't even include support vessels and from what I understand a good number of them are in a sorry state. Oh, and they don't even have a cruiser to replace to Taco's ready to go yet want to remove them! So they need to be pumping out Burke's, developing a new DDG which needs to jump into large production quickly, on top of developing a new Cruiser (are they even doing this currently?) which will need to jump into production in large volume quickly, on top of modernizing their shipyard infrastructure (how did it even get out of date with the budgets they have?), while also producing Virigina subs as fast as they can while developing the Columbia which then has the enter production simultaneously.... Jesus

I think the US has to go for a sort of Build Back Better style deal/investment in military equipment if they want to maintain an edge (I am not even sure that this is possible in the naval realm given China's excellent ship building industry) and address all of those programs I listed above in a timely manner. They need to invest staggering amounts of money to transform their military away from Cold War era to a totally modern force. Also, the time frame for their projects has to be condensed considerably.

Either they return to a Cold War size military and whatever budget that would require today (likely a trillion plus dollars per year), or China will greatly surpass them in a number of areas by the mid 2030s. The only reason they haven't already is because of the staggering advantage the US was able to build up during the Cold War which afforded them time to dick around and waste money, cancel projects for like 25+ years.
The simple solution to Americas shipbuilding woes is to start copying the PLAN. They should read the lean startup. Iterate quickly based on real world feedback.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
Can the Zumwalt's be used as Cruisers or are their radars not optimized for that?
They were originally designed to equip the SPY-4 radar, which is roughly the same size as the 37 RMA SPY-6 on board CVN-79 and DDG-51 FLTIII. There shouldn't be any problem to upgrade them. However, operating high power radars will defeat their expensive stealth measures.

I think the Navy wanted at one point to fit the much larger 67 RMA on their future cruisers. Such a radar could see a target half the size at four times the distance as the current SPY-1D radars.
 

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