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gelgoog

Captain
Registered Member
The problem with upgrading old F-15s is that it is quite likely they have airframe fatigue. I think they would have been built over 20 years ago.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The problem with upgrading old F-15s is that it is quite likely they have airframe fatigue. I think they would have been built over 20 years ago.
34 years. The last F15C model left the factory in 1985.
One problem with the type was a structural engineering defect in The Longeron a critical part that basically holds the aircraft together. In a a failure the aircraft basically falls apart in mid air. Repair is possible but I think that combined with the upgrades and supposedly the USAF was looking to add the QA wing and multi role capabilities lead to the choice to replace the type.
F15E is a little over 20 years old and been in more or less constant production and improvement.
F15E tailored the F15 For strike missions reinforcing and redesigning the fuselage for Low level ground attack. These lead to a longer service life than there older F15 variants.
The X models will take this farther with a new wing and reduced weight by the move to a Fly by wire control system. However the F15X shouldn't have been needed. The F22 was the original aircraft slated to replace F15 C and D.
 

Jeff Head

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
So...here it is.

We have three countries who have throught 2018...together it seems, decided to buy F-35Bs and put them on their "carriers" that were not going to be fixed carriers.

The South Korean Dokdo (6111) and its new sister ship which was launched in 2018, the Marado (6112),are going to get ski-jumps and F-35Bs. The new Izumo class for the JMSDF are going to both get ski-jumps attached and fly F-35Bs off their decks. This includes the Izumo (183) and the Kaga (184). The Australian coninue to mull over nd consider the Canberras for the F-35B. They kept the large ski-jump on the front end of these 27,9000 ton carriers, which the Spanish use for their HArriers and will porably themselves ultimately use the F-35B.. So, for Australia, they too have two such carriers, meaning the Canberra (L02) and the Adlilaide (L01).

B now for its three carriers. The exisit Vikramaditya, the indegenous Vikrant, and the 3rd full deck CATBOOAR carrier they plan to builf. The F-35B would be a significant upgrade over the Mig-29Ks they hae, though that aircraft itself is a huge upgrade over the Harriers they had before.

Turkey is planning to put F-35Bs on its new multi-function ampjibious/air craft carrying vesssel. Italy will put them on its Cavour carrier, and of coure the U will put the largets number on ts two Queen Lizabeth class carriers,

But let's particularly consider the three nations in the western Pacific.

Why,seemingly all of a sudden in 2018 do these three nations begin announcing very serious plans for the F-35B. Japan is a done deal. In December 2017,
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reported that the Japanese government was contemplating modifying the Izumo class to operate F-35B STOVL aircraf. Later, in February 2018, the Yomiuri Shimbun reported that Japan was planning to acquire 40 F-35Bs, which could be operated from these ships. Then, in n March that same year, the ruling Liberal Democrats called upon the Japanese government to develop its own aircraft carriers and operate F-35B aircraft, which has been thought to include refitting the Izumo class. In November 2018, Nikkei Asian Review reported that Japan was planning to procure the F-35B within an order for an additional 100 F-35 aircraft. Finally, on on 18 December 2018, the Japanese Cabinet gave approval to modify the Izumo-class into de-facto aircraft carrier. The modifications will reinforce the decks of the Izumo-class ships to support the additional weight of the F-35B and to retrofit a ski-jump on the forward part of the carrier decki. The ruling parties re-designated the Izumo-class ships to Multi-Purpose Operation Destroyers.

Korea has gone through a similar process and is also considered to be pretty much a done deal. Australia is not as sure yet, but one here's more and more steady calls for aircraft carriers in Australia, with the Canberra class and obvious contender as they are already so close to being ready for that option.

So what has driven this.

Here's why I think.

Generally I bel;ieve the aircraft carrier building plans of the Chinese Navy are driving it...but those plans have been well known for years. I bel;ieve something new must be happening. I believe there is some G-2 out there about what is coming that pushed these nations over the edge to stand up together and unilaterally and add this GREAT capability to their ships.

What could that something be?

Well, consider what would happen if the Chinese launched their 3rd carrier with a fifth generation, carrier capable J-31 on it?...or a derivitive of the J-20. Or, if the Chinese launched a 35,000 Amphibious assult ship similar to the America class that also included a new, 5th geeration VSTOL, 5th generation aircraft available for it and for follow on vessels...sort of like the US is doing. The US will have 10-11 ;arge 40,000 ton+ amphibious assault ships, any of which can be quikly turned into a F-35B aircraft crrier carrying 20 ircraft...in addition to the 11 large deck carriers than can carry up to 90 aircraft of various varieties, including the 5th generation, catapult launched F-35C that has a larger wing, longer range, and more ordinance capability.

Could the Chinese be responding to a prospect of up to 20 US carriers...and then these other nations, who are closer to CHina, then respondong to China's response. This respons is going to add six additional carriers to US allies over the next year or two.

And when yu include India, Spain, and Italy, there are a potential five more...not two mention the ROyal NAvy's to.

I am currently building a 1/700 scale two carrier strike group fr the JApanese which will include noth the Izumo and the Kaga with ski jumps and upwards of 15 F-35Bs on their decks, and incuding their AEGIS, Akizu, and Takinam escorts...as well as ne of their newer AOE fast replenishment vessel, the Mashu 425 and its escort. That AOE ships, until the launch of the Izumo class, were the largest JMSDF ships, full load displacement of 25,000 tons, even larger than the full load of the two Hyuga DDH class ships.

But the Izuo and the Kaga both displace 30,000 tons at full load (and mayne a little more).

Anyhow, I will make a vide of this carrier strike group when it is finished. I have almost completed both carriers and have to build the esorts and the AOE.

I also included an AEW version of the Osprey. I believe the JSMDF will not be satisfied with a helicopter AEW for long, and since they are buying the Opsrey and developing a relationship there...and since any VSTOL carrier could use an Osprey that has been converted to n AEW withfull pressurization, mre powerful enines and the ability to take the already proposed AEW wedge up to 30,000 plus feet and giver perhaps 2/3rds tbe range of the E-2D...this would amke a HUGE difference in the self defense and offense capability of the carriers. Far better than a helicopter variant. For example, the Merlin Royl Navy AEW has a sevice ceiling of only 15,000 feet, thereby significantly reducing its over the horizon look at incoming aircraft or missiles. And, the Crowsnest aircraft will have to be drawn from a total of 30 HMS aircraft available for the Navy which will also use them for ASW, Search and rescue, and surveillance/patrol roles.

Seems like the RN is really short changing (IMHO) the carriers which emand the best of everything. You simply do not spend this type of money for the vessels and the airwing and then not give them the best self defence ansd best AWEW available.

I do not believe he JMSDF will make the same mistake.

So, @bd popeye @Obi Wan Russell @Jura @asif iqbal @Deino @Equation @duncanidaho @TerraN_EmpirE what do you guys think?
 

Jeff Head

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
They can't.
F15CX and F15EX are both based on evolutions of the F15E. But taken farther down the line to the latest F15QA.
The level of changes involve more than those of the Strike Eagle to include new Wing sets that increase the theoretical missile load to 22.
Note I said theoretical as never will they actually carry 22 AMRAAMS on mission.
Farther more the entire flight control system is now Fly by wire. This would have been an impossible upgrade to the C D or E models in inventory.
The whole scheme is in fact to replace C and D models with CX and EX in a near 1 to 1. The Legecy C & D models being retired and left without the next line of upgrades. The planned system upgrades being pushed into the CD and EX.
Well, I hope they build them then. They sound like complete new builds.

That's what I like about the Advanced Hornet. You get a stealthy capability, more fuel, etc. and it can all be retrofitted onto existing F/A-18E?F aircraft.

But having those new F-15s will also leave us in a goood position...though I cannot see how they are going to take out the existing F-15C/Ds and replace them without cutting omething else...like the logistic train of the exosting F-15 C/D...which leaves us vulnerable while doing so...or less of something else.

Obama already hurt the logistics train and spare parts badly, s well as training funds. we cannotcontinue down that path. We shalo see. Thanks for the info...I have not kept up with the new F-15s.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
That's what I like about the Advanced Hornet. You get a stealthy capability, more fuel, etc. and it can all be retrofitted onto existing F/A-18E?F aircraft.
Well to degrees. The F15X is a bit of a "Navy Scheme". The Navy never closed the Super Hornet line. This is because they constantly buy new birds because let's face it Carrier landings are controlled crash landings.
The Advanced Hornet is not a simple upgrade but block buy.
But having those new F-15s will also leave us in a goood position...though I cannot see how they are going to take out the existing F-15C/Ds and replace them without cutting omething else...like the logistic train of the exosting F-15 C/D...which leaves us vulnerable while doing so...or less of something else.
This is the trouble spot and reason why I am not totally sold.
The only way this scheme works is by replacing F15C for F15CX. The only way the costs work is of the resulting cost for F15C and D SLEP and upgrades came to over 45 million and the Boeing people bid to build the new birds for under 75 million. That leaves a 30million dollar window that the DOD thinks it could somehow make up for. Already this buy as killed any Legacy F15C or D upgrades. Additions like the Passive Active Attack Display, Eagle Warfare suit system, Legion pod, Sniper Pod, AESA Radar, JHMCS II are all going on E models but only a hand full of test birds got them for the C & D fleet. No more.
Basically there is no fleet recap from here out instead they will just transition existing C And D Eagle drivers to CX and EX.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
B now for its three carriers. The exisit Vikramaditya, the indegenous Vikrant, and the 3rd full deck CATBOOAR carrier they plan to builf. The F-35B would be a significant upgrade over the Mig-29Ks they hae, though that aircraft itself is a huge upgrade over the Harriers they had before
India like Taiwan and now Turkey are out.
India may hope for F35 down the line but my bet is that more long term.
Right now they are having a time just getting conventional 4+ gens sorted.
Being blunt I think Rafal or Sea Gripen is there best bet. Mig29K is a bird with numbered days. Issues the Indians have had as well as the virtual loss of the Kuznetsov carrier mean that it's a hard sell to either Russia or India right now.
Turkey is planning to put F-35Bs on its new multi-function ampjibious/air craft carrying vesssel.
Turkey under it's current leadership is increasingly becoming a trouble spot in NATO.
It's right now impossible to kick someone out of NATO but if there was...
President Trump signed a bill blocking F35 transfers to Turkey. For the foreseeable future until President Erdoğan leaves office or some other huge shift between US Turkey relations happens. I consider the F35 sale as likely as sale of more F14 to Iran.
also included an AEW version of the Osprey. I believe the JSMDF will not be satisfied with a helicopter AEW for long, and since they are buying the Opsrey and developing a relationship there...and since any VSTOL carrier could use an Osprey that has been converted to n AEW withfull pressurization, mre powerful enines and the ability to take the already proposed AEW wedge up to 30,000 plus feet and giver perhaps 2/3rds tbe range of the E-2D...this would amke a HUGE difference in the self defense and offense capability of the carriers. Far better than a helicopter variant. For example, the Merlin Royl Navy AEW has a sevice ceiling of only 15,000 feet, thereby significantly reducing its over the horizon look at incoming aircraft or missiles. And, the Crowsnest aircraft will have to be drawn from a total of 30 HMS aircraft available for the Navy which will also use them for ASW, Search and rescue, and surveillance/patrol roles.

Seems like the RN is really short changing (IMHO) the carriers which emand the best of everything. You simply do not spend this type of money for the vessels and the airwing and then not give them the best self defence ansd best AWEW available.

I do not believe he JMSDF will make the same mistake.
I am not as hopeful as I used to be in an AEW Osprey. But the MUX program by the Marines.

The degree of modifications need to pressurize and AEW V22 I think would result in a totally new Bird and a price tag that might make them squeamish..
Where as by using a Drone like the V247 You can keep costs down take up less space and integrate it into the existing VIC systems.
 
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gelgoog

Captain
Registered Member
I have expected the helicopter carriers in East Asia to move to support the F-35 for quite some time now.
If I was the Chinese, I would counter that with CATOBAR carriers which can launch aircraft with a larger combat load.
The CATOBAR carriers would be smaller than the US carriers. Roughly the same size as the Charles de Gaulle. So you can deploy them to cover more space. These would be nuclear powered.

I would also make even smaller CATOBAR carriers, roughly the size of the helicopter carriers, that would launch strike drones. These would be conventionally powered.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Jeff.. I think the JMSDF fully intends to build a carrier that will handle a F-35B. When this will occur I have no clue.

As for a AEW version of a V-22 I've only seen a lot of talk about it and no action. And we all know how long these things take. Personally I'd like to see an V-22 AEW aboard US Navy & our allies ships..
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Not bad. We knew this day will be coming in regards to drone wing man.

Maverick to Ice Man: "Sorry Ice Man looks like you will be flying from the comfort of inside a carrier today.";):p

Business
Boeing unveils unmanned combat jet developed in Australia
2019-02-27T001629Z_1_LYNXNPEF1Q00L-OCABS_RTROPTP_2_CBUSINESS-US-AUSTRALIA-AIRSHOW-BOEING-UNMANNED.JPG.cf.jpg

A model of Boeing Co's new unmanned, fighter-like jet, called the Boeing Airpower Teaming System, is displayed in Avalon, Australia February 27, 2019. REUTERS/Jamie Freed
By Jamie Freed

AVALON, Australia (Reuters) - Boeing Co on Wednesday unveiled an unmanned, fighter-like jet developed in Australia and designed to fly alongside crewed aircraft in combat for a fraction of the cost.

The U.S. manufacturer hopes to sell the multi-role aircraft, which is 38 feet long (11.6 meters) and has a 2,000 nautical mile (3,704 kilometer) range, to customers around the world, modifying it as requested.

It is Australia's first domestically developed combat aircraft in decades and Boeing's biggest investment in unmanned systems outside the United States, although the company declined to specify the dollar amount.

Defense contractors are investing increasingly in autonomous technology as militaries around the world look for a cheaper and safer way to maximize their resources.

Boeing rivals like Lockheed Martin Corp and Kratos Defense and Security Solutions Inc are also investing in such aircraft.

Four to six of the new aircraft, called the Boeing Airpower Teaming System, can fly alongside a F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, said Shane Arnott, director of Boeing research and prototype arm Phantom Works International.

"To bring that extra component and the advantage of unmanned capability, you can accept a higher level of risk," he said.

The Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies in the United States said last year that the U.S. Air Force should explore pairing crewed and uncrewed aircraft to expand its fleet and complement a limited number of "exquisite, expensive, but highly potent fifth-generation aircraft" like the F-35.

"Human performance factors are a major driver behind current aerial combat practices," the policy paper said. "Humans can only pull a certain number of Gs, fly for a certain number of hours, or process a certain amount of information at a given time."

In addition to performing like a fighter jet, other roles for the Boeing system early warning, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance alongside aircraft like the P-8 Poseidon and E-7 Wedgetail, said Kristin Robertson, vice president and general manager of Boeing Autonomous Systems.

"It is operationally very flexible, modular, multi-mission," she said. "It is a very disruptive price point. Fighter-like capability at a fraction of the cost."

Robertson declined to comment on the cost, saying that it would depend on the configuration chosen by individual customers.

The jet is powered by a derivative of a commercially available engine, uses standard runways for take-off and landing, and can be modified for carrier operations at sea, Robertson said. She declined to specify whether it could reach supersonic speeds, common for modern fighter aircraft.

Its first flight is expected in 2020, with Boeing and the Australian government producing a concept demonstrator to pave the way for full production.

Australia, a staunch U.S. ally, is home to Boeing's largest footprint outside the United States and has vast airspace with relatively low traffic for flight testing.

The Boeing Airpower Teaming System will be manufactured in Australia, but production lines could be set up in other countries depending on sales, Arnott said.

The United States, which has the world's biggest military budget, would be among the natural customers for the product.

The U.S. Air Force 2030 project foresees the Lockheed Martin F-35A Joint Strike Fighter working together with stealthy combat drones, called the "Loyal Wingman" concept, said Derrick Maple, principal analyst for unmanned systems at IHS Markit.

"The U.S. has more specific plans for the wingman concept, but Western Europe will likely develop their requirements in parallel, to abate the capabilities of China and the Russian Federation and other potential threats," he said.

Robertson declined to name potential customers and would not comment on potential stealth properties, but said the aircraft had the potential to sell globally.

"We didn't design this as a point solution but a very flexible solution that we could outfit with payloads, sensors, different mission sets to complement whatever their fleet is," she said. "Don't think of it as a specific product that is tailored to do only one mission."

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Why look at a new F-15? What’s wrong with your current ones?
There are four weapons systems that we have to fly into the 2030s. The National Defense Strategy — it’s what it asks us to do. It’s clear that in each portfolio, in certain levels, we need to grow. And we looked at different force elements and different force sizes, different kinds of weapon systems working together. It became clear to us that we need capacity. Of those four weapons systems that we need to fly into the 2030s, as we build up size of the F-35 fleet, one of them is not going to make it, and that’s the F-15C. A-10s are going to fly in the 2030s, F-15 Eagles will fly in the 2030s, F-16 will fly in the 2030s. All our analysis says the F-15C’s not going make it.
was the most interesting part of what I've now read which is
US Air Force chief on the F-35 ‘quarterback,’ new and improved F-15, and future of light attack
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