US economic decline and impact on force projection capabilities

akinkhoo

Junior Member
jimmyttl, yes nice to meet you too ;-P

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FreeAsia2000, interesting article tho it really didn't provided any new data.

i think there is little question that US is facing a decline, but i just couldn't find anything now to suggest this will break into a fallout. the world economy is so tied to the US that their decline will likely mean our decline as well, this is damage we just couldn't bare to recover.

it is just too hard to take only US's own internal issue as the only factor that will impact their economy.

however, the article does bring in fact: the US government is in financial trouble. and i suspect the inability is due more to federal budget issue than economy. it has been happening since mr bush became president. there is some level of cutting back in every department, including the DOD which this subject is about.

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changes will occur on force projection capabilities as DOD has already planned those Xs... even B2's end date is on their table. but this also mean they had and they did made arrangement for cheaper alternative to fill the gaps.
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
akinkhoo said:
jimmyttl, yes nice to meet you too ;-P

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FreeAsia2000, interesting article tho it really didn't provided any new data.

i think there is little question that US is facing a decline, but i just couldn't find anything now to suggest this will break into a fallout. the world economy is so tied to the US that their decline will likely mean our decline as well, this is damage we just couldn't bare to recover.

it is just too hard to take only US's own internal issue as the only factor that will impact their economy.

however, the article does bring in fact: the US government is in financial trouble. and i suspect the inability is due more to federal budget issue than economy. it has been happening since mr bush became president. there is some level of cutting back in every department, including the DOD which this subject is about.

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changes will occur on force projection capabilities as DOD has already planned those Xs... even B2's end date is on their table. but this also mean they had and they did made arrangement for cheaper alternative to fill the gaps.

Hmm well Todd's argument is that america is in a state of hyperpower...it is in effect trying to project more power than it possesses on the basis of it's economic and SOCIETAL indicators...similar to the USSR.

regarding consumption of goods , i watched an interview on CCTV9 recently where a chinese government advisor was saying that at some point they would have to put a stop to supplying goods to america on the basis of its printing of dollars.

the rest of the world would suffer in the short term but in the long term it would be more healthy...i believe trade relations in a multi-polar world would benefit resource suppliers as well as domestic consumers in china and other countries besides making the world a more culturally friendly place.

our situation in the uk is that our foreign policy is in the hand's of people like rupert murdoch who own substantial assets in america unfortunately they've run quite a vitriolic campaign against european integration so when the crunch time comes we're going to suffer more than necessary :(
 

cabbageman

New Member
Andrew said:
I understand very little about economics but from what I have read it appears that the US is importing goods and has found some way of not having to deliver anything of real value in return - just its paper money. Clearly, this situation can and will not continue indefinitely.

Two words: Knowledge Economy.
 

Nethappy

NO WAR PLS
VIP Professional
however, the article does bring in fact: the US government is in financial trouble. and i suspect the inability is due more to federal budget issue than economy. it has been happening since mr bush became president. there is some level of cutting back in every department, including the DOD which this subject is about.

This is very true, but it also due to some long terms monetary policy. As America proconsumption tax policies and super low interest rate encourage it people to borrow and/or spend it money rather then saving it, which created all the personal debts such as credit card bills and mortgages. Combined with it federal budget deficit which most would tell you, is cause by IRAQ. Nevertheless it also arguable by exceeds military spending.

A shortfall of domestic/national saving countries can curtail economic growth or borrow from the rest of the world. The frist option just doesn't cut in the land of wealth, the biggest economic in the world with the highest GDP, PPP and all the others. That leave the second option borrowing. So America must run a massice current-account deficit to attract the foreign capital it needs to fund economic growth.

From my last post
Its citizens are spending ever more on foreign goods, and with the US dollar as the international currency, the US Government just prints money to finance the deficit and with this money, central banks in the surplus countries purchase most of the US Treasury bonds as currency reserve.

There the catch, as American and it Government keep on spending, and the government keep on borrowing, the federal budget deficit grow. The large the federal budget deficit the lesser ability the nation's has to absorb possible shocks from major outbreak. Let name a few Cyclones, oil price, H5N1, soaring trade deficit and possibly property bubble burst.

IMO there is a few way out of this mess, which is a increace in national saving, lowering of federal spend, lower military and most important stop fighting war. I mean Afagh is alrite cos, everyone was taking a share of the cost. But Iraq, it really drain up the US resource.

changes will occur on force projection capabilities as DOD has already planned those Xs... even B2's end date is on their table. but this also mean they had and they did made arrangement for cheaper alternative to fill the gaps.

But in most cases they always manage to find a more expensive replacement.
 

Ender Wiggin

Junior Member
actually the state of the current debts came from the Reagan administration inn the 80's y'know the MASSIVE arms build up to spend the Soviet Union to death.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
IDonT said:
PPP is good for measuring the STANDARD of LIVING in a country, in other words a regular Chinese citizen's purchasing power is equivalent to it living a country that has a GDP of about 7 trillion.
If you are measuring comparative strengths between economies, PPP is no good. It does not take into account the labor force, infrastructure, labor mobility, intellectual rights, rule of law, etc.

Lets make some things clear here. PPP is a way of comparing various kinds data. One (out of many) set of data that can be measured by PPP is GDP. GDP measured by PPP is merely nominal GDP of a country processed through the PPP ratio for that country, compared to the dollar.

And, as such, it is not very precise way to measure a country's GDP. BUT. With the exception of US, neither is nominal GDP in dollars. It would be better if instead of PPP measurement we had each little bit of country's economy dissected into bits and pieces and for each bit we had a different way of comparison, not just using the basket of goods price index. But i guess that's too complicated. So we're stuck with PPP for measuring GDP. So while it is not accurate on an absolute level, i believe it is still much more accurate than nominal GDP. In the example of US, it makes no difference. But in less developed countries it just get more and more innacurate to use nominal GDP, quickly so to the point that if becomes far more accurate to use PPP GDP.

That being said, i'll get more on topic. US is at no economic decline. Its debt is nothing alarming, lots more countries have higher percentage of debt in their GDP. Its economy is still growing and even though its true that sooner or later the budget deficit will have to be taken care of, it's nothing truly alarming.
 

Nethappy

NO WAR PLS
VIP Professional
actually the state of the current debts came from the Reagan administration inn the 80's y'know the MASSIVE arms build up to spend the Soviet Union to death.

Mostly true, the Bush's Administration did inherited most of it $8.4 trillion debt from previous administration. Nevertheless, the Bush's Administration really don't have anyone to blame for $456 billion increase in debt during the first six months, of the current fiscal year. Which on an annual basis add up to $912 billion, or $2.5 billion per day seven days a week.

That being said, i'll get more on topic. US is at no economic decline. Its debt is nothing alarming, lots more countries have higher percentage of debt in their GDP. Its economy is still growing and even though its true that sooner or later the budget deficit will have to be taken care of, it's nothing truly alarming.

You should read the follow article from Money Week

More debt, not less: will US pressure on China have the desired result?

Mr. Hu Jintao, the Chinese President, is scheduled to visit Washington later this month while the United States continues to put pressure on China to let its currency appreciate against the dollar. It seems China is going to comply: In December Mr. Yu Yongding, who is a member of the monetary policy advisory committee to the People's Bank of China, said that China should weaken the link between the yuan (renminbi) and the US dollar, to make the exchange rate more flexible and improve the (Chinese) government's ability to manage the economy.

Mr. Yu suggested that the weighting of the US dollar in the basket of currencies against which the renminbi is set should be reduced; thereby reducing the impact that changes in the US dollar would have on the value of the renminbi. Mr. Yu also said that Chinese firms should get ready for a strengthening of the yuan in the next one to two years. The "fuller the preparations, the better," he said.

In January China said that it would allow interbank spot trading (i.e. not futures trading) of its currency - a major step towards a less restricted foreign exchange regime in China. Another significant announcement came from China’s State Administration of Foreign Exchange (SAFE) that said China should diversify its massive foreign exchange holdings, which are predominantly held in US dollars. SAFE gave no specifics and no hint as to any kind of timetable, but this is not the first time that we have heard such rhetoric from Asia.

The BBC reported this week that Chinese Parliamentary vice-chairman Cheng Siwei suggested China might reduce the amount of US bonds it holds as part of its foreign exchange reserves. China’s Central Bank was quick to point out that Mr. Cheng was speaking in his private capacity; however, with President Hu Jintao’s imminent visit to Washington I find it hard to believe that Mr. Cheng’s opinion is an aberrant opinion. His remarks led to a decline in the US dollar and a concomitant increase in the gold price this week. Gold is within spitting distance of $600 an ounce.

Perhaps less widely publicized, but potentially far more important, is the increase in long-term US interest rates. The benchmark 10-year Treasury fell this week causing the 10-year interest rate to rise to 4.971% - a four year high. Why are US bonds falling, causing interest rates to rise? Because if the Chinese allow their currency to appreciate

against the dollar it implies reduced purchases of US Treasuries by China. Japan has already curtailed its purchases of US Treasuries and, in fact, Japans' holding of US Treasuries is busy declining.

The mechanism by which China and Japan have been supporting the US dollar is to buy US Treasuries instead of selling US dollars into foreign exchange markets. If they are forced by Washington to let the dollar fall, it means they will have to buy less US Treasuries; hence, a falling US dollar will go hand-in-hand with rising US interest rates, exactly what has been happening recently - and as predicted in these pages.

Note, however, that it is not short-term interest rates, over which the Federal Reserve has considerable control that we are looking at; it is longer term interest rates, which are set by the market, that will tell us what is going on. An aspect of the current situation that is being ignored is that US government debt is about to explode. Rising interest rates mean the interest burden on US debt is rising. But, higher interest rates will put a drag on the economy and I do not, for a minute, believe that the current jobless economic expansion is going to last. I am afraid that a more realistic expectation is a slowdown in economic activity, which will lead to reduced tax receipts by the US government.

In addition, there is no reason, whatsoever, to think that the US government is about to curtail its spending; rather, if the economy does slow down, there is some reason to believe the government will try to stimulate it by increasing its deficit spending. Thus we are looking at reduced income for the US Treasury in the future and an increase in government expenditures and a higher interest burden on the burgeoning outstanding Treasury debt.

Many people pooh-pooh the US debt situation. Let me try to put it in context for you. The US Treasury has a hair under $8.4 trillion in outstanding debt. Did you know that if you deposited one million dollars into a bank account every day, starting 2006 years ago, that you would still not even have ONE trillion dollars in that account. If you deposit one million dollars into a bank account every day it would take 23,000 years to accumulate $8.4 trillion dollars.


Maybe you don’t like to think that far into the future. Perhaps a trillion is just too big a number to comprehend, so let’s think about billions. During the past six months, since the beginning of the current fiscal year, the US government’s debt has increased by $456 billion. On an annualized basis that is $912 billion. The US government’s debt increases at the rate of $2.5 billion per day, including weekends. How much is a billion? A billion seconds ago it was 1974 and one billion minutes ago Jesus may still have been alive. Next time someone tosses the word “billion” or “trillion” around casually you should ask if they actually know how much it is.

It might be true that the US economy is very large, and many people believe the US economy is large enough to carry the humungous amount of US debt. Personally I believe that US economic growth is overstated but, even if we assume the official numbers are correct, then US economic growth is only about 2% to 3% per year. The US government’s debt is currently growing at an annualized rate of 11.5% and, as I explained earlier, that growth rate is about to increase. The amount, and the growth rate of US government debt, coupled with the possibility that China will have to reduce its purchases of US Treasuries to comply with the wishes of Washington, means that US interest rates could soar. Again, we are not talking about short-term rates here, but longer-term rates: The five-year rate on which auto financings are based, and the twenty and thirty-year rates on which mortgage rates are based. This is bound to hurt US consumers, corporations and the US economy and it will occur in conjunction with a weakening US dollar, which means higher gasoline prices.

A weaker dollar also means higher gold prices.

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cabbageman

New Member
GDP doesn't measure the power of knowledge economy, PPP or otherwise.

All arguments about national debt and savings could really be sum up by the account deficit problem. That's the real bottom line.
 

Nethappy

NO WAR PLS
VIP Professional
GDP doesn't measure the power of knowledge economy, PPP or otherwise.

All arguments about national debt and savings could really be sum up by the account deficit problem. That's the real bottom line.

True, this is very true. If these issue a handled correctly then it should mend the US economic and personally I hope they do. Cos a bad US economic could most likely mean a bad world economic.
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Nethappy said:
True, this is very true. If these issue a handled correctly then it should mend the US economic and personally I hope they do. Cos a bad US economic could most likely mean a bad world economic.

It's really a economic base and superstucture problem..america's superstructure
is making demands that it's economic base can't satisfy therefore at some point the economic base will bring it back to reality.

Same thing has happened to myriad empire's in history...look at the USSR..it's collapse had a devastating effect on it's satellite countries however they have by and large adapted. The same thing will happen again
 
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