Type 09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread


Bltizo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Why then the hump is higher in the 094 A? please explain.

Could be any variety of reasons.
A different missile compartment could be due to anything such as improved acoustics or perhaps simply a redesign for a better missile tube with better performance (reliability, maintenance, who knows).

Point is, don't go assuming any minor difference is necessarily something that reflects "desirable" improvements, such as increase in missile range, unless we have credible rumours of it.


More importantly in this specific case, the idea that it is carrying JL-3 is certainly beyond the pale, because if such a massive development did happen, there is a very good chance we would have heard about it through the usual channels

We can't just go around speculating willy nilly, without being guided by credible rumours.
 

Tirdent

Junior Member
Registered Member
More importantly in this specific case, the idea that it is carrying JL-3 is certainly beyond the pale, because if such a massive development did happen, there is a very good chance we would have heard about it through the usual channels

Yes, JL-3 does not seem to be ready for deployment yet, from what I gather. It could be a case of "fitted for, but not with" though, where this will eventually become the first boat to use the new missile. Not quite the same thing (new sub, old missile instead of legacy boat design fitted for new missile), but IIRC Le Triomphant entered service with M5(1) tubes fitted with liners for the M45.

If that's true, I suppose it's good news on the missile front (JL-3 available soonish) but means the 09VI class is still a while off.
 

ougoah

Major
Registered Member
Yes, JL-3 does not seem to be ready for deployment yet, from what I gather. It could be a case of "fitted for, but not with" though, where this will eventually become the first boat to use the new missile. Not quite the same thing (new sub, old missile instead of legacy boat design fitted for new missile), but IIRC Le Triomphant entered service with M5(1) tubes fitted with liners for the M45.

If that's true, I suppose it's good news on the missile front (JL-3 available soonish) but means the 09VI class is still a while off.

The 096 production facility might be just starting to tool up and set up. So it's many years away from even being built. Hopefully they design will have benefited from recent advancements/breakthroughs and it will not simply be the same league as Ohio, Borei, Vanguard since the 096 would have been mostly designed after 2010 and finalised recently while those subs were designed in the 1990s (with the available tech and computing of that era). I guess it all depends on how good the propulsion is.
 

gelgoog

Captain
Registered Member
The 096 production facility might be just starting to tool up and set up. So it's many years away from even being built. Hopefully they design will have benefited from recent advancements/breakthroughs and it will not simply be the same league as Ohio, Borei, Vanguard since the 096 would have been mostly designed after 2010 and finalised recently while those subs were designed in the 1990s (with the available tech and computing of that era). I guess it all depends on how good the propulsion is.

Borei-A is a new submarine. I suspect China had a lot more access to Russian expertise in submarine construction since, given the political realities post 2014 with the invasion of Crimea, so I doubt the designs will be anything but leading edge.
I think they are not rushing with the Type 096 because like you said they are developing new construction facilities. China is going to compete with the US in terms of nuclear submarines over the next decade. These new facilities will enable huge leaps in construction rate.
I hope China will also build a new submarine class to compete with the Virginia class in the numbers required.
 

Tam

Colonel
Registered Member
The 096 production facility might be just starting to tool up and set up. So it's many years away from even being built. Hopefully they design will have benefited from recent advancements/breakthroughs and it will not simply be the same league as Ohio, Borei, Vanguard since the 096 would have been mostly designed after 2010 and finalised recently while those subs were designed in the 1990s (with the available tech and computing of that era). I guess it all depends on how good the propulsion is.


The PLAN might be innovating and refining new technologies with each new 093 and 094 sub. Its not likely that all the members of the class have the same sound signature and level. The newer members are going to be more quiet than the preceding member and the original member of the class. We might be psychologically underestimating how quiet and improved the newer subs are due to the underwhelming reputation of the original members.
 

ougoah

Major
Registered Member
The PLAN might be innovating and refining new technologies with each new 093 and 094 sub. Its not likely that all the members of the class have the same sound signature and level. The newer members are going to be more quiet than the preceding member and the original member of the class. We might be psychologically underestimating how quiet and improved the newer subs are due to the underwhelming reputation of the original members.

That's definitely true and observably so. Even outward changes are not insubstantial. These are all serial/custom produced on a one off basis.

They're obviously refining as they go along and updating the design where possible with newer technologies and equipment.

Makes you wonder if the first set of 093 and 094's nuclear propulsion systems are near identical to what we have now on the latest 093 and 094 builds.

They're still a generation behind the 1990s designed 2000s service SSN and SSBN in the USN.

I would hope (and think) that the 095 and 096 are not attempts to produce capability and technology equivalents of Virginia and Ohio class but a step above... since 095 and 096 were designed nearly 2 decades after those boats with all the advancements in every field. China's overall tech ability (in every domain) in 2010 to 2020 period is certainly well above the US equivalents in 1990 to 2000. Especially in comms and computing. The only unknown when it comes to technologies involved with submarines and their production, would be the nuclear propulsion system. That may lag 20 years or more possibly. While it's unlikely to be that far behind, who knows.
 

Tam

Colonel
Registered Member
That's definitely true and observably so. Even outward changes are not insubstantial. These are all serial/custom produced on a one off basis.

They're obviously refining as they go along and updating the design where possible with newer technologies and equipment.

Makes you wonder if the first set of 093 and 094's nuclear propulsion systems are near identical to what we have now on the latest 093 and 094 builds.

They're still a generation behind the 1990s designed 2000s service SSN and SSBN in the USN.

I would hope (and think) that the 095 and 096 are not attempts to produce capability and technology equivalents of Virginia and Ohio class but a step above... since 095 and 096 were designed nearly 2 decades after those boats with all the advancements in every field. China's overall tech ability (in every domain) in 2010 to 2020 period is certainly well above the US equivalents in 1990 to 2000. Especially in comms and computing. The only unknown when it comes to technologies involved with submarines and their production, would be the nuclear propulsion system. That may lag 20 years or more possibly. While it's unlikely to be that far behind, who knows.


The reason for persisting in the usage of older systems may not be because of the lack of technology, but because of institutional momentum. There is no lack of nuclear technology in China, with the country forging ahead with new generations of PWR and other nuclear reactor types for its power grid. It maybe because the PLAN brass is well satisfied with the current reliability and performance of the 093 and 094 power systems, knowing that it took a long road to get there. You can find examples of institutional momentum with other armed forces.

I suspect the 093/094 power plant and propulsion is not strong enough for a pump jet. While pump jet cavitates less at high RPM, it is less efficient or so they say, and its a reason why diesel electrics and AIP subs don't use that. Having mentioned that, diesel electrics are still so quiet, so a pump jet may not be a necessary feature. Still, we have no way of seeing, confirming either yes or no, that the later 093 and 094 models do or do not have a pump jet.

What I do think, is that the leap from the original 093, to the humped 093A, there is a significant leap in the quality of the sensors, and that PLAN subs are not behind when it comes to sensor or sonar technology, given the electronics and software development of their industry.

The external changes we see on the subs could be enhancing the hydrodynamics of the submarines, so not only they can be running faster or use less power for any given amount of power, but the improved hydrodynamics are reducing the flow noise around the submarines. Particular areas of flow noise around the submarine tends to be around the corners, such as the root and top corner of the sail, and the pattern, shape, and number of drainage holes. We see significant changes in those areas.

Another important area is the design of the skewed propeller itself. Being so, a photograph of the propeller should be considered OPSEC. When it comes to noise, cavitation issues and all things like that, the propeller design is vital. Development of the propeller design can be subject to so many supercomputer simulations, another area where supercomputing plays in the national defense. Its logical for China to pursue supercomputer development, but its also logical for the US to throw roadblocks on it. That's how the game goes. The design of hte propeller can vary from one sister of the same class after another, as the designs are evolved and improved. Each sister, as a result of incremental and evolutionary improvements, will have a different sound signature from each other. If you're the potential adversary, you are going to have to track each sister and record each of their unique sound signatures.

Finally there is the attitude of the submarine arm itself. The PLAN submarine arm doesn't sound as aggressive as say, back in the 2000s and 2010 period, where they would track US carrier groups, and send a nuclear sub noisily and fast around Guam or something. Instead, they seem much more restrained in recent years. Perhaps the brass has clamped down on such actions, and replaced the theater with massed surface ship operations. In contrast, the Russian Navy's submarine arm is more aggressive than ever. Not too long ago, a good number of submarines, perhaps five to seven, breached the GIUK gap. The Russians didn't display such belligerence since the Cold War. Recently you got three Russian nuclear submarines surfacing through the ice in the Arctic. I am inclined to think that changes in the PLAN admiralship since Xi Jing Ping took over, were more surface warship and carrier oriented than their predecessors that were more submarine oriented, the sub faction heavily influenced from the Soviet wing, while the surface ship faction heavily influenced by the Western wing.
 

davidau

Junior Member
Registered Member
The reason for persisting in the usage of older systems may not be because of the lack of technology, but because of institutional momentum. There is no lack of nuclear technology in China, with the country forging ahead with new generations of PWR and other nuclear reactor types for its power grid. It maybe because the PLAN brass is well satisfied with the current reliability and performance of the 093 and 094 power systems, knowing that it took a long road to get there. You can find examples of institutional momentum with other armed forces.

I suspect the 093/094 power plant and propulsion is not strong enough for a pump jet. While pump jet cavitates less at high RPM, it is less efficient or so they say, and its a reason why diesel electrics and AIP subs don't use that. Having mentioned that, diesel electrics are still so quiet, so a pump jet may not be a necessary feature. Still, we have no way of seeing, confirming either yes or no, that the later 093 and 094 models do or do not have a pump jet.

What I do think, is that the leap from the original 093, to the humped 093A, there is a significant leap in the quality of the sensors, and that PLAN subs are not behind when it comes to sensor or sonar technology, given the electronics and software development of their industry.

The external changes we see on the subs could be enhancing the hydrodynamics of the submarines, so not only they can be running faster or use less power for any given amount of power, but the improved hydrodynamics are reducing the flow noise around the submarines. Particular areas of flow noise around the submarine tends to be around the corners, such as the root and top corner of the sail, and the pattern, shape, and number of drainage holes. We see significant changes in those areas.

Another important area is the design of the skewed propeller itself. Being so, a photograph of the propeller should be considered OPSEC. When it comes to noise, cavitation issues and all things like that, the propeller design is vital. Development of the propeller design can be subject to so many supercomputer simulations, another area where supercomputing plays in the national defense. Its logical for China to pursue supercomputer development, but its also logical for the US to throw roadblocks on it. That's how the game goes. The design of hte propeller can vary from one sister of the same class after another, as the designs are evolved and improved. Each sister, as a result of incremental and evolutionary improvements, will have a different sound signature from each other. If you're the potential adversary, you are going to have to track each sister and record each of their unique sound signatures.

Finally there is the attitude of the submarine arm itself. The PLAN submarine arm doesn't sound as aggressive as say, back in the 2000s and 2010 period, where they would track US carrier groups, and send a nuclear sub noisily and fast around Guam or something. Instead, they seem much more restrained in recent years. Perhaps the brass has clamped down on such actions, and replaced the theater with massed surface ship operations. In contrast, the Russian Navy's submarine arm is more aggressive than ever. Not too long ago, a good number of submarines, perhaps five to seven, breached the GIUK gap. The Russians didn't display such belligerence since the Cold War. Recently you got three Russian nuclear submarines surfacing through the ice in the Arctic. I am inclined to think that changes in the PLAN admiralship since Xi Jing Ping took over, were more surface warship and carrier oriented than their predecessors that were more submarine oriented, the sub faction heavily influenced from the Soviet wing, while the surface ship faction heavily influenced by the Western wing.
China's President is called Xi Jinping, not Xi Jing Ping.
 

Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
I know people are allergic to Minnie Chan but over at SCMP new article said type 94 is now equipped with JL3 siting the new silo for SLBM. I know it was discussed in above post
Using average height of North Chinese man 1.75m The silos opening is look like 2.5 m-2.7 m. But of course the actual silo that house the missile is smaller but it is wider than JL2 2 m for sure
1619908621439.png

The Type 094A, or
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nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine (SSBN), was presented last Friday as part of the celebration to mark the
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. It was capable of firing the JL-3, or Julang (Big Wave) SLBM with a range over 10,000km (6,200 miles), a source close to the navy said.

“The Type 094A is an upgraded version of the Type 094 that overcame one of the key problems – noise – by improving hydrokinetic and turbulent systems, allowing it to carry the more powerful JL-3,” said the source, who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject.

1619908171835.png

Nevertheless, the concepts of North and South continue to play an important role in regional stereotypes. "Northerners" are seen as: Taller. According to the 2014 census, the average male height between the age of 20-24 was 173.4 cm in Beijing, 174.9 cm in Jilin province and 177.1 cm in Dalian.
 
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