Type 076 LHD/LHA discussion

00CuriousObserver

00CuriousObserver

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Focusing too much on manned aircraft and a2a misses the forest for the trees: the Type 076 + GJ-21 is a ground attack monster.

The GJ-21 has a payload capacity of over 2 tons. This is substantial as amphibious operations require extensive fire support. This amount of munitions needed is several orders of magnitude higher than that required for an air superiority battle. Being unmanned, it can essentially operate non-stop by rotating operators. With a 076 sitting several dozen kilometers offshore and repeatedly launching rounds of GJ-21 attacks non-stop (instead of having to fly several hundred kilometers to reload) is a devastating amount of firepower that is very needed for amphibious operations.

00CuriousObserver said:
Some notes from the latest paid 察话会 episode:
  • The Type 076 is not a "Taiwan-oriented" or """Taiwan-related""" ship, and this raised some debates during its procurement process
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With this in mind, you can see why Yankee said the 076 is not a "Taiwan oriented ship". Of course, 076 can be used against Taiwan, but almost all of Taiwan is covered by 370mm MLRS. Yet, for areas like the Sakishima Islands, the Batanes/Babuyan Islands, or even northern Luzon and Okinawa, these cannot be reached by 370mm MLRS. 076 would be ideal for ground attack in such cases.

00CuriousObserver said:
The Type 076 is a 两栖攻击舰, an amphibious assault ship. In a Taiwan contingency and Westpac HIC, there may be numerous islands that need to be neutralized. Consider these as prime examples of potential ops for the 076; they are still within the reach of land based manned aircraft.

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This is not to say manned jets on the 076 wouldn't bring benefits, but they come with such significant compromises that they're unlikely to be desirable for the ship's primary purpose - again, to neutralize such islands.
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Can the 076 operate manned fighters and a2a UCAVs? Sure, but one should think deeper about whether it's worth giving up part of its excellent surface-to-ground capability.
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

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00CuriousObserver said:
Focusing too much on manned aircraft and a2a misses the forest for the trees: the Type 076 + GJ-21 is a ground attack monster.

The GJ-21 has a payload capacity of over 2 tons. This is substantial as amphibious operations require extensive fire support. This amount of munitions needed is several orders of magnitude higher than that required for an air superiority battle. Being unmanned, it can essentially operate non-stop by rotating operators. With a 076 sitting several dozen kilometers offshore and repeatedly launching rounds of GJ-21 attacks non-stop (instead of having to fly several hundred kilometers to reload) is a devastating amount of firepower that is very needed for amphibious operations.
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I agree as to the important strike role of GJ-21, but I think high op tempo operations conducted at such short ranges (076 only several dozen kms off shore) would be a poor use of GJ-21's characteristics imo.



00CuriousObserver said:
With this in mind, you can see why Yankee said the 076 is not a "Taiwan oriented ship". Of course, 076 can be used against Taiwan, but almost all of Taiwan is covered by 370mm MLRS. Yet, for areas like the Sakishima Islands, the Batanes/Babuyan Islands, or even northern Luzon and Okinawa, these cannot be reached by 370mm MLRS. 076 would be ideal for ground attack in such cases.
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I get the feeling that not only is 076 not a Taiwan oriented ship, I think that 076 having GJ-21 is not really useful in a "short range" (i.e.: under 100km distance) strike mission against a ground based target set, given GJ-21 has such a long range for its size and is so stealthy (if your target needs VLO to hit it then chances are you aren't going to park an amphibious strike group near the enemy).

If we think about the strike/fire support missions that GJ-21 can do off 076 which other organic naval or LHD assets cannot (including helicopters with ATGMs etc), it's basically relatively long range, high-likelihood-of-success, penetrating strike missions.
 
00CuriousObserver

00CuriousObserver

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Blitzo said:
I agree as to the important strike role of GJ-21, but I think high op tempo operations conducted at such short ranges (076 only several dozen kms off shore) would be a poor use of GJ-21's characteristics imo.

I get the feeling that not only is 076 not a Taiwan oriented ship, I think that 076 having GJ-21 is not really useful in a "short range" (i.e.: under 100km distance) strike mission against a ground based target set, given GJ-21 has such a long range for its size and is so stealthy (if your target needs VLO to hit it then chances are you aren't going to park an amphibious strike group near the enemy).

If we think about the strike/fire support missions that GJ-21 can do off 076 which other organic naval or LHD assets cannot (including helicopters with ATGMs etc), it's basically relatively long range, high-likelihood-of-success, penetrating strike missions.
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Perhaps not necessarily as close as several dozen kms, but it's not contradictory.

What I'm describing is only a subset of what the Type 076 and GJ-21 are capable of. Of course, the GJ-21 launched from a 076 is perfectly able to strike targets 500-1000km away and will likely do so.

The GJ-21 is not just designed for the 076, but also for the carriers. For the latter, its easy to see the scenarios you're describing (e.g. Guam). But I don't think this means the GJ-21 is not useful against targets that don't require all of GJ-21's capabilities (i.e. targets at shorter ranges and don’t require its level of stealth). Nonetheless in these cases, its advanced capabilities may still prove valuable (longer loitering time, even lower chance of being detected).

Regardless, the 076 ultimately needs to get somewhat close to shore for amph ops by her nature. In such a scenario, even if other assets can also provide fire support, they may still not be as efficient as GJ-21s, even when those GJ-21s aren’t using their full capabilities.

We can extend the scope to other strike UAVs as well. Ultimately the point is the relationship between the 076 and ground fire support.
 
Blitzo

Blitzo

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00CuriousObserver said:
Perhaps not necessarily as close as several dozen kms, but it's not contradictory.

What I'm describing is only a subset of what the Type 076 and GJ-21 are capable of. Of course, the GJ-21 launched from a 076 is perfectly able to strike targets 500-1000km away and will likely do so.

The GJ-21 is not just designed for the 076, but also for the carriers. For the latter, its easy to see the scenarios you're describing (e.g. Guam). But I don't think this means the GJ-21 is not useful against targets that don't require all of GJ-21's capabilities (i.e. targets at shorter ranges and don’t require its level of stealth). Nonetheless in these cases, its advanced capabilities may still prove valuable (longer loitering time, even lower chance of being detected).

Regardless, the 076 ultimately needs to get somewhat close to shore for amph ops by her nature. In such a scenario, even if other assets can also provide fire support, they may still not be as efficient as GJ-21s, even when those GJ-21s aren’t using their full capabilities.

We can extend the scope to other strike UAVs as well. Ultimately the point is the relationship between the 076 and ground fire support.
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I agree, GJ-21 isn't designed merely for 076 but also for carriers -- and I agree that for amphibious operations, 076 will need to get rather close to shore anyway.

What I'm saying is that if the 076 were to get that close to the shore (a few dozen kilometers, or even within 100km), if you were to use 076 to conduct high optempo sorties with GJ-21, I think that would be a poor use of GJ-21's characteristics.

GJ-21 is a bit overkill from a range/endurance perspective for targets within 100km -- if anything you probably want an aircraft able to carry heavier payloads than what GJ-21 is able to do (I assume it doesn't have external ordnance carrying capability).
Also, the flight deck of 076 isn't really well suited for high optempo flight operations.
As a straight deck CATOBAR, it is probably able to accommodate lower tempo flight operations (e.g.: if you have fewer airframes where each sortie lasts a long time or has a long range -- something well suited for GJ-21), but higher tempo flight operations will likely prove challenging.

There's also the fact that a CATOBAR launch and recovery process (your ship needs to be moving into the wind ideally) probably won't allow the 076 to conduct amphibious operations and CATOBAR flight operations at the same time. I could see a 076 dislodging its amphibious elements relatively close to shore and then leaving further from the coast to conduct CATOBAR flight ops.
 
Gloire_bb

Gloire_bb

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Yep, honestly speaking 076 right now seems as a semi-experiment, attempting to verify feasibility of independent secondary amphibious operations away from fleet carrier presense - by itself(only with screen). Should it work out(why shouldn't?), this will allow PLAN, should the situation call for it, wastly increase tempo of amphibious incursions against secondary points.

For that it can maintain CAP, S/A of surrounding space. It can prosecute marauding aircraft, and has some personal penetration strike capability. If it will be able to have a small flight of fighters(JL-XX) to guide drones as LWs - better still, but otherwise they can be guided from the ship or escorts, just with lesser flexibility.

076 is still absolutely capable of hosting helicopter AEW, and in general, helicopter aspect is being reinforced strongly - at this deck width, helicopters - manned or not, transport or attack) can work in two landing lines(which is a major boost to ops tempo).

How is it relevant? See beginning of the Pacific war. It is.

p.s. otherwise, it can be also a nice presense ship for China station, Tsingtao occidental station, for same reasons.
 
00CuriousObserver

00CuriousObserver

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Blitzo said:
I agree, GJ-21 isn't designed merely for 076 but also for carriers -- and I agree that for amphibious operations, 076 will need to get rather close to shore anyway.

What I'm saying is that if the 076 were to get that close to the shore (a few dozen kilometers, or even within 100km), if you were to use 076 to conduct high optempo sorties with GJ-21, I think that would be a poor use of GJ-21's characteristics.

GJ-21 is a bit overkill from a range/endurance perspective for targets within 100km -- if anything you probably want an aircraft able to carry heavier payloads than what GJ-21 is able to do (I assume it doesn't have external ordnance carrying capability).
Also, the flight deck of 076 isn't really well suited for high optempo flight operations.
As a straight deck CATOBAR, it is probably able to accommodate lower tempo flight operations (e.g.: if you have fewer airframes where each sortie lasts a long time or has a long range -- something well suited for GJ-21), but higher tempo flight operations will likely prove challenging.

There's also the fact that a CATOBAR launch and recovery process (your ship needs to be moving into the wind ideally) probably won't allow the 076 to conduct amphibious operations and CATOBAR flight operations at the same time. I could see a 076 dislodging its amphibious elements relatively close to shore and then leaving further from the coast to conduct CATOBAR flight ops.
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Space on a flat deck is limited. I agree that an aircraft with heavier payloads may be more ideal in such a scenario, but there is a trade-off.

As for the 076 being a straight deck CATOBAR, keep in mind that these fixed wing aircraft are unmanned. They are smaller in size and simpler to operate. Moving aircraft from the forward part of the ship to the aft part or to the launch position also should not interfere with launch operations (edit: though this will need to be confirmed for certainty), which is not the case for other LHAs/LHDs. So while ops are obviously limited, they're also likely more efficient in comparison.

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No disagreements otherwise
 
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