Trade War with China

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I don't see the necessity of harsh altitude to ZTE's "stupidity". Remember ZTE, like many other SoE (in oil and banking sectors) carries out national strategic tasks. The very thing you blame ZTE for is their business in Iran, am I right?

Now, let me tell you why it is not ZTE's "stupidity". ZTE built a massive fiber communication network in Iran. Who is to say this network is not serving the Iranian defense? We all know Iran is a patterner of China in the region that China will NEVER give up (think about the cost to China of the fall of Iranian Sasanian Dynasty at the hands of Arabs in 651AD). You also should know that China set up many entities (banks, oil companies) to do business with Iran. These entities have absolutely no business in US, therefor immune to the sanction (so long as Washington is not openly going after the Chinese government). Some of them (not well prepared) were actually sanctioned by US, nothing special to blame ZTE. ZTE may have made some mistakes, or the government as well, but never blame ZTE for doing the job. I would not blame the soldier who lost his leg on the battlefield for his "stupidity".
No, ZTE's stupidity was not doing business with Iran. ZTE's stupidity was being sloppy with their data, bringing sensitive information with them to US trips and getting them seized by customs. ZTE needs to carry out its missions carefully and and tactfully, always ready for the utmost US response instead of assuming that the US wouldn't care or bother to investigate it, and being caught flat-footed when the investigation comes.

The soldier who lost his leg to inevitable enemy action is a hero; the solder who lost his leg because he purposefully stepped on an enemy landmine because he just didn't believe it would detonate is an idiot.
 
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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
No, ZTE's stupidity was not doing business with Iran. ZTE's stupidity was being sloppy with their data, bringing sensitive information with them to US trips and getting them seized by customs. ZTE needs to carry out its missions carefully and and tactfully, always ready for the utmost US response instead of assuming that the US wouldn't care or bother to investigate it, and being caught flat-footed when the investigation comes.

The soldier who lost his leg to inevitable enemy action is a hero; the solder who lost his leg because he purposefully stepped on an enemy landmine because he just didn't believe it would detonate is an idiot.
Regardless the metaphor, I just don't see why to be so harsh on the guy next to you in the same trench no matter how sloppy he may be. Blaming the brother in arm is not the right thing for the spirit. He is sloppy today, tomorrow you could be the one sloppy because you could not sleep for days.
 

SilentObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
Regardless the metaphor, I just don't see why to be so harsh on the guy next to you in the same trench no matter how sloppy he may be. Blaming the brother in arm is not the right thing for the spirit. He is sloppy today, tomorrow you could be the one sloppy because you could not sleep for days.
Going by @manqiangrexue 's analogy I think he means that he prefers the "soldier" to be less of idiots and that an "idiot" deserves some sort of negative response to provide a lesson for him and others to discourage sloppy behaviour. Even though it might not be in good spirit to blame the company since they are "brother in arm" as you put it, he sees that there is a mission to be accomplished and the companies are the soldiers. If a soldier becomes sloppy or act like an "idiot" in ways that will compromise the mission you would want to be harsh to him a lesson for him and others. He would think being nice to ZTE would hurt national interests of China thus an "idiot" like ZTE would need to be shamed as much as possible.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Going by @manqiangrexue 's analogy I think he means that he prefers the "soldier" to be less of idiots and that an "idiot" deserves some sort of negative response to provide a lesson for him and others to discourage sloppy behaviour. Even though it might not be in good spirit to blame the company since they are "brother in arm" as you put it, he sees that there is a mission to be accomplished and the companies are the soldiers. If a soldier becomes sloppy or act like an "idiot" in ways that will compromise the mission you would want to be harsh to him a lesson for him and others. He would think being nice to ZTE would hurt national interests of China thus an "idiot" like ZTE would need to be shamed as much as possible.
I would only do the harshing internally, not in front of the public, not repeatedly like a punchbag.
 

longmarch

Junior Member
Registered Member
No ZTE got the latest ban not because they did business with Iran, they got banned because they didn't fall through with its agreement with US government to punish some of their employees. You can argue that US government uses this as an excuse, but the fact that ZTE provide such excuse shows how naive and stupid their top management has been, after paying a billion dollar and fired its CEO! There is no explanation for this other than total incompetence!
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
In concession, Trump will help China's ZTE 'get back into business'



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FILE PHOTO: The logo of ZTE Corp is seen on its building in Beijing
FILE PHOTO: The logo of ZTE Corp is seen on its building in Beijing, China April 19, 2018. REUTERS/Stringer
By Valerie Volcovici and Karen Freifeld

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump pledged on Sunday to help Chinese technology company ZTE Corp "get back into business, fast" after a U.S. ban crippled the company, offering a job-saving concession to Beijing ahead of high-stakes trade talks this week.

"Too many jobs in China lost. Commerce Department has been instructed to get it done!" Trump wrote on Twitter in the first of two tweets about U.S. trade relations with China. It said he and Chinese President Xi Jinping are working together on a solution for ZTE.


Shortly after Trump's tweet, a Democratic lawmaker questioned the move to help the Chinese company, given numerous warnings about ZTE's alleged threat to U.S. national security.

ZTE suspended its main operations after the U.S. Commerce Department banned American companies from selling to the firm for seven years as punishment for ZTE breaking an agreement reached after it was caught illegally shipping U.S. goods to Iran.

The U.S. Commerce Department, ZTE and the Chinese Embassy could not immediately be reached for comment.

U.S. officials are preparing for talks in Washington with China's top trade official Liu He, to resolve an escalating trade dispute.

Trump's proposed reversal will likely ease relations between the world's two biggest economies. Washington and Beijing have proposed tens of billions of dollars in tariffs in recent weeks, fanning worries of a full-blown trade war that could hurt global supply chains and dent business investment plans.

In trade talks in Beijing this month, China asked the United States to ease crushing sanctions on ZTE, one of the world’s largest telecom equipment makers, according to people with knowledge of the matter.

In a second tweet on Sunday, Trump said past U.S. trade talks with China posed a hurdle that he predicted the two countries would overcome.

"China and the United States are working well together on trade, but past negotiations have been so one sided in favor of China, for so many years, that it is hard for them to make a deal that benefits both countries," Trump wrote on Twitter.

"But be cool, it will all work out!" he added.

Trump's reversal on ZTE could have a significant impact on shares of American optical components makers such as Acacia Communications Inc and Oclaro Inc, which fell when U.S. companies were banned from exporting goods to ZTE.

ZTE paid over $2.3 billion to 211 U.S. exporters in 2017, a senior ZTE official said on Friday.

The U.S. government launched an investigation into ZTE after Reuters reported in 2012 the company had signed contracts to ship hardware and software worth millions of dollars to Iran from some of the best known U.S. technology companies. (Reuters report that exposed the practice:
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ZTE pleaded guilty last year to conspiring to violate U.S. sanctions by illegally shipping U.S. goods and technology to Iran and entered into an agreement with the U.S. government. The ban is the result of ZTE's failure to comply with that agreement, the Commerce Department said.

The ban came two months after two Republican senators introduced legislation to block the U.S. government from buying or leasing telecommunications equipment from ZTE or Huawei [HWT.UL], citing concern the companies would use their access to spy on U.S. officials.

Without specifying companies or countries, Federal Communications Commission Chairman Ajit Pai recently said "hidden ‘backdoors’ to our networks in routers, switches, and other network equipment can allow hostile foreign powers to inject viruses and other malware, steal Americans’ private data, spy on U.S. businesses, and more.”

ZTE relies on U.S. companies such as Qualcomm Inc, Intel Corp and Alphabet Inc's Google. American companies are estimated to provide 25 percent to 30 percent of components in ZTE’s equipment, which includes smartphones and gear to build telecommunications networks.

Claire Reade, a Washington-based trade lawyer and former assistant U.S. Trade Representative for China affairs, said the ZTE ban was a shocking blow to China’s leadership and may have caused more alarm in Beijing than Trump’s threats to impose tariffs on $50 billion in Chinese goods.


“Imagine how the United States would feel if China had the power to crush one of our major corporations and make it go out of business,” Reade said. “China may now have strengthened its desire to get out from a under a scenario where the United States can do that again.”

Even though ZTE was probably “foolish” in not understanding the consequences of violating a Commerce Department monitoring agreement, she said the episode makes it less likely that China would make concessions on U.S. demands that it stop subsidizing efforts to develop its own advanced technology, she said.

Other experts said Trump's policy reversal was unprecedented.

“This is a fascinating development in a highly unusual case that has gone from a sanctions and export control case to a geopolitical one," said Washington lawyer Douglas Jacobson, who represents some of ZTE’s suppliers.

Trump's announcement drew sharp criticism from a Democratic lawmaker, who said the move was jeopardizing U.S. national security.

"Our intelligence agencies have warned that ZTE technology and phones pose a major cyber security threat," Representative Adam Schiff, a Democrat, said on Twitter. "You should care more about our national security than Chinese jobs."

ZTE suppliers including Acacia, Oclaro, Lumentum Holdings Inc, Finisar Corp, Inphi Corp and Fabrinet, all fell sharply after the ban was announced. Shares of Acacia, which got 30 percent of its total revenue in 2017 from ZTE, hit a record low after the ban was announced. Oclaro, which earned 18 percent of its fiscal 2017 revenue from ZTE, fell 17 percent.

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Is Trump making ZTE or China great again?:cool::po_O
 

SilentObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
I would only do the harshing internally, not in front of the public, not repeatedly like a punchbag.
I understand what you mean. Just to push it further, what are the negative consequences you see by promoting this publicly? I don't think the entire industry and other industries would receive the impact it did. The media essentially broadened this impact on the entire society rather than just to ZTE if it was done internally.

Don't think China is so brittle. China needs challenges and poking to help it develop properly.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Regardless the metaphor, I just don't see why to be so harsh on the guy next to you in the same trench no matter how sloppy he may be. Blaming the brother in arm is not the right thing for the spirit. He is sloppy today, tomorrow you could be the one sloppy because you could not sleep for days.
My anger towards ZTE is in rhetoric only. It is a Chinese SOE responsible for the greatest number of tech patents in the world and a front-runner in the 5G race. My words are harsh but if I had any powers to help them at all, I would exercise those powers at least 100%.
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Is Trump making ZTE or China great again?:cool::po_O
This is no concession; there are several factors at play here:

Firstly, they started the problem and now they'll offer to get rid of it. That's a negotiation tactic. Even if they get nothing in return, they don't lose. If they get any substance in return or even a bit of goodwill at the negotiating tables, that's a profit from the tactic.

Secondly, several US companies are suffering badly from the ban, including Qualcomm, which was already in bad shape. They probably lobbied to Trump that ZTE won't go under because it's a Chinese company backed by the Chinese economy. In less than 7 years surely, they'll be back with a full line-up of domestic devices and shut out all US suppliers permanently. Qualcomm, on the other hand, is America's only 5G tech company, so if they buckle from financial challenge, the US is out of the race, leaving Huawei to dominate by default. If they are expected not to buckle, then how much government aid is Trump willing give to Qualcomm to stay alive and competitive?

Given those choices, Trump likely chose to play the card while it still has any value and see if he can get anything from China out of it. One thing is for sure: he has no good intentions towards the Chinese no matter how he words his decisions. China needs to evaluate ZTE's current needs and give Trump nothing or in the worst case driven by temporary need, very little for his "gesture."

But the most important point is that the lesson must not be lost; full efforts to gain independence from US tech must continue as if the ban were still in place and ZTE must go ahead designing its new US-free line-up so they can dump American tech on their own terms as soon into the future as possible.
 
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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
I understand what you mean. Just to push it further, what are the negative consequences you see by promoting this publicly? I don't think the entire industry and other industries would receive the impact it did. The media essentially broadened this impact on the entire society rather than just to ZTE if it was done internally.

Don't think China is so brittle. China needs challenges and poking to help it develop properly.
To answer that, think about brothers. People born after 1980s may not have brothers or sisters. But people like me born in the 1970s do. We play together with other kids. When there was a fight, we covered each other's back, even one of us made mistakes, we don't laugh or point fingers at our brothers like other kids did. We go home together with swelled face and lips, then we may argue who made the fault. That is brotherhood.

The negative consequence of publicly blaming each other is the breaking of the brotherhood, the moral, the spirit of fighting for each other. Who else would you expect to watch your six? Your brother, nobody else. Here goes the old Chinese saying "打虎亲兄弟,上阵父子兵". ZTE is the brother, no matter how bad he performed, he is your brother. That's all we should care.

The (Chinese) media focused on the lack of domestic substitute in the ZTE case. It is not focused on ZTE being "stupid" or "break US law".

It is internet BBS that started the "shit throwing". Let me tell you what I read. First ZTE was blamed for back stabbing Huawei in the 3GPP conference votes, then it turned out to be Lenovo (Motorola) voting against Huawei, then it turned that Huawei was not really the owner of the proposed "short code" scheme but rather Huawei choose to back it because the true inventor (an Egyptian) does not have strong industrial backer, therefor Huawei would be in a better position of patent layout.

Lastly, never trust media easily, not the Chinese mass media either. You have heard about the practice among Chinese media "water army", "paid article", "report ransom"? Same thing as fake news in the west.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
My anger towards ZTE is in rhetoric only. It is a Chinese SOE responsible for the greatest number of tech patents in the world and a front-runner in the 5G race. My words are harsh but if I had any powers to help them at all, I would exercise those powers at least 100%.
And I 100% agree with that with my two thumbs up.
 
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