Trade War with China

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decided to comment on the main board;

yesterday I reported two posts:

1. the racist (still visible inside #5384 where it's quoted) which you then deleted, and

2. the goading #5411
Yes, this is great, there's some racism there. Nice to stir the pot, to throw out mild provocations and occasional insults, sarcasm etc, sprinkled with lot's of LOL's, and just wait until someone crosses a certain line. Perhaps @siegecrossbow can examine the whole conversation, which starts some 10 pages back, so see what role various people play. Otherwise, the moderator risks being used for someone's agenda.
which you haven't deleted,

so I should perhaps not to react to "Nice to stir the pot, to throw out mild provocations and occasional insults, sarcasm etc, sprinkled with lot's of LOL's, and just wait until someone crosses a certain line."

right?
 

Max Demian

Junior Member
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You are allowed to criticize in the west because you are powerless. Same with participating in elections.
If that's all you do, then indeed you could be cynical and see yourself as powerless to change the big picture.

However, there is also the freedom to campaign and set up your own political party. It's just a matter of how much of your time/energy/money you're willing to invest. And you can do that at the workplace as well. Unlike in the US, multiparty parliaments are the norm here and small parties play meaningful roles.
 

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
In the short-term, yes, China companies should spend as much as possible on increased R&D spending.
But in the long-run, it does look like there is a practical limit to productive R&D spending.

Many hi-tech countries (US, Germany, Korea, Taiwan, Israel, Switzerland, Austria, Finland etc) max out at $1400-$1600 per person
But China is roughly at $400 (PPP) per person.
That works out as 2.18% of GDP, which is an exceptionally high amount of R&D spending for a middle-income country.
Everyone else at that level is already wealthy and developed, and we can already see China is on the path to joining them, given some time.

And eventually, a wealthy developed China could be spending 3.1% of GDP on R&D spending like its East Asian Confucian peer group.
That likely means more R&D spending in China than the rest of the world combined.
But bear in mind that this scenario is at least 2 decades away...
Which do you think is the bigger challenge for China in the near future: R&D spending increase or R&D personnel increase? Last time I looked at these numbers (2017), the number of people working in R&D in China was comparable to the US, despite 4.5 times the population. Spending per fulltime R&Der doesn't seem to lag all that much, unlike what the per capita numbers might imply.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
In the short-term, yes, China companies should spend as much as possible on increased R&D spending.
But in the long-run, it does look like there is a practical limit to productive R&D spending.

Many hi-tech countries (US, Germany, Korea, Taiwan, Israel, Switzerland, Austria, Finland etc) max out at $1400-$1600 per person
But China is roughly at $400 (PPP) per person.
That works out as 2.18% of GDP, which is an exceptionally high amount of R&D spending for a middle-income country.
Everyone else at that level is already wealthy and developed, and we can already see China is on the path to joining them, given some time.

And eventually, a wealthy developed China could be spending 3.1% of GDP on R&D spending like its East Asian Confucian peer group.
That likely means more R&D spending in China than the rest of the world combined.
But bear in mind that this scenario is at least 2 decades away...

China’s funding for science and research to reach 2.5 per cent of GDP in 2019

  • Country will hit its target a year ahead of schedule, but scientists say they still don’t get enough funds for basic research
  • China has been closing the gap on spending in recent decades as it pursues ambition of becoming a global tech superpower

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A jump in R&D spending from 2.18% to 2.5% this year is really significant.

We can already see that Chinese companies have had their sputnik moment, and see their long-term survival tied up with technology independence from the US.
But if we're looking at Basic and Applied Research, I think it's instructive to look at what happens elsewhere.
This is just a rough draft

In Germany, we can see:

Max Planck Society (Basic Research)
Personnel: 22000
Budget: $2.16B PPP - from 1.8B Euro
Per Person: $98K PPP

Fraunhofer Society (Applied Research)
Personnel: 25000
Budget: $2.76B PPP - from 2.3B Euro
Per Person: $125K PPP

And if we use the average German salary of $55K PPP, we can see that for Basic and Applied Research, roughly half of all costs are related to personnel.

The nearest Chinese equivalent is the Chinese Academy of Sciences, which does both Basic and Applied Research.
It has 60000 personnel which is roughly the same size as the Max Planck and Fraunhofer combined.

---

In the USA, we've got the NSF which dispenses $7.8B in thousands of grants to universities.
There are also a number of other government funding institutions like the NIH, etc
Along with private research universities which also have substantial budgets.

It looks like the National Natural Science Foundation of China (with a budget of $5.8B) is the equivalent of the NSF in the USA.

---
Given that wage costs in China for R&D personnel are a lot lower, China does have a competitive advantage here.
China does have a much larger population and larger technical graduate base than Germany and the USA.

Plus when you look at the numbers involved, it looks cheap compared to the hundreds of billions that China spends on infrastructure every year.

Imagine if the government were to reduce the railway construction budget by 10%.
That would release 80 Billion RMB, which is equivalent to $22B in PPP terms.

If that were to be applied to basic and applied research, we're looking at double or triple what is being spent today.
That would be broadly comparable to the total US government spending (approx $40B)

This is just the short term view,
But in the distant future, it is possible for China to sustain R&D spending greater than the rest of the world combined.
That simply comes from 1.4 billion people with high income levels.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Which do you think is the bigger challenge for China in the near future: R&D spending increase or R&D personnel increase? Last time I looked at these numbers (2017), the number of people working in R&D in China was comparable to the US, despite 4.5 times the population. Spending per fulltime R&Der doesn't seem to lag all that much, unlike what the per capita numbers might imply.

R&D spending increases are easy for the Chinese government.

But expanding the pool of R&D personnel and worthwhile R&D projects that is the bottleneck.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Which do you think is the bigger challenge for China in the near future: R&D spending increase or R&D personnel increase? Last time I looked at these numbers (2017), the number of people working in R&D in China was comparable to the US, despite 4.5 times the population. Spending per fulltime R&Der doesn't seem to lag all that much, unlike what the per capita numbers might imply.

And considering the salary in China is significantly lower than in the US, in reality actually China's R&D PPP spending could well be higher than in the US
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
And considering the salary in China is significantly lower than in the US, in reality actually China's R&D PPP spending could well be higher than in the US

The NSF already reported to Congress that China spends more on R&D, based on PPP.
That fear of no longer being top dog, is part of the reason why US politicians have become so hostile to China

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AndrewS

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The view from Russia

Putin says US tariffs are designed to hold back China’s rise

  • U.S. trade tariffs and sanctions are aimed at holding China and Russia back, Russian President Vladimir Putin said Thursday.
  • During his annual phone-in with members of the Russian public, Putin said U.S. tariffs on China, and sanctions on Russia’s economy for its annexation of Crimea from Ukraine in 2014, were aimed at holding both countries back.

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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
This is just the short term view,
But in the distant future, it is possible for China to sustain R&D spending greater than the rest of the world combined.
That simply comes from 1.4 billion people with high income levels.

I was re-reading the draft and this statement was bugging me.

So I actually ran the numbers properly, and ended up with the following:

Let's say China's growth slows down further to only 6% per year until 2025.
That means GDP per capita (PPP) grows from $19K today, to $27K
That means the Chinese economy would grow from $27Trillion today, to $38 Trillion in PPP terms.

At the same time, R&D spending undergoes a steady increase from 2.5% today, to 3.1% in 2025.
You end up with R&D spending of $500B today, growing to $1200Billion in 2025.
That is roughly same as what I expect the combined spending of the US+Europe+Japan to be in 2025.

So in summary, we could see a very large increase in R&D spending in China over the next 6 years.
And there is actually very little that the USA can do to derail this trajectory.
They can slow it down, but at the cost of a much more hostile relationship with China.

But at the end of the day, China's economic and technology development will be driven by internal factors.

So I think this is part of the reason why China is preparing for a technology cold war if need be, as it knows it should win such a competition in the long-run.

And even if you model using nominal exchange rates instead of PPP, you still end up with the same result in 10-20 years time.
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
And if we go with China having a $38 Trillion in PPP terms in 2025, what does that mean for military spending?

If China maintains military spending at a modest 2% of GDP, that works out as $760Billion in PPP terms.
But if there is a full-scale technology cold war, that will spill over into the realm of military spending.

So we could expect China's military spending to be double at 4%.
After all, that is what the US routinely spent over the past 15-odd years.
 
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