Trade War with China

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Ultra

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What is ‘Made in China 2025’ — and why is it a threat to Trump’s trade goals?
by Kristen Hopewell May 3

Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin and an all-star
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are in China this week to talk about the proposed
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on Chinese goods — and Beijing’s
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on U.S. autos, airplanes and soybeans.

The
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— and record $375 billion U.S. deficit in goods trade in 2017 — looms large behind the threat of a trade war between the world’s two largest economies. But President Trump’s complaints also extend to Beijing’s
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program, an industrial upgrading strategy that aims to shift China’s economy into higher value-added manufacturing sectors, such as robotics, aerospace and energy-saving vehicles.

What is Made in China 2025, and why is it getting so much attention now? Here are four things to know.

1. China wants to compete in advanced manufacturing
The stated objective of this program, which was released in 2015, is for China to become a major competitor in advanced manufacturing, a sector dominated by high-income, developed countries such as United States. To date, China has relied on manufacturing and exporting basic consumer goods like clothing, shoes and consumer electronics to drive the country’s growth. In these lower-value, low-wage sectors, China chiefly competes with other developing countries like Mexico, Brazil, South Africa and Taiwan.

But to escape the
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that has plagued many developing countries, China needs to move toward high-tech industries. That’s where the Made in China 2025 strategy comes in.

Made in China 2025 involves government subsidies, heavy investments in research and innovation, and targets for local manufacturing content. It also builds on earlier government policies encouraging or requiring foreign companies seeking to access the Chinese market to enter into joint ventures with, and transfer technology to, domestic firms.

2. This is a fairly standard industrialization strategy
Trump argues that Made in China 2025 unfairly disadvantages U.S. companies. But these policies aren’t unique to China — they are standard tools for developing countries playing “catch-up” with the richer, industrialized West.

Other late bloomers — think Japan and the
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of South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore — used similar policies to foster economic growth and raise incomes. The principle today is also straightforward, from Beijing’s perspective: If foreign multinationals are going to reap
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from producing and selling goods in the massive Chinese market, then the country should be able to harness that investment to aid its own national development.

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, including the United States, relied on state intervention and protectionist policies during their own processes of economic development.
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used tariffs and subsidies to foster the growth of infant industries, aggressively adopted technology from more advanced countries and strongly regulated foreign investment.

As the world’s second-largest economy, China is now a major economic power but remains a developing country. Average per capita income is just $8,000 compared to $56,000 in the United States. Although China has achieved remarkable success in fostering economic development and reducing poverty, it still faces
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in boosting incomes to anywhere close to the level of advanced economies.

3. Made in China competes with Made in America
China’s continued economic development will bring the country
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with the United States, which is why Trump has explicitly stated the proposed U.S. tariffs are
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the Made in China 2025 program. But this strategy is unlikely to be effective and risks undermining rather than boosting U.S. manufacturing.

Most of the Made in China 2025 advanced industries are still in development and not yet exporting to the United States. China wants to develop its
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, for example, but is many years away from developing commercial jets that could potentially compete with Boeing. For now, China remains a big buyer of
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.

Currently, the United States imports only limited high-tech products from China — but does import inputs used to manufacture high-tech goods in the United States. The United States does not buy aircraft from China, but imports parts that are used to manufacture aircraft in the United States — and then exported to China and other foreign buyers.

The bottom line is that a proposed 25 percent tariff on “high-tech” imports from China, including aircraft and parts, will harm the U.S. aircraft industry by increasing the cost of inputs and making Boeing’s products less competitive compared to its European rival, Airbus.

4. Will U.S. tariffs actually work?
Since Trump’s tariffs
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, this will
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and reduce the competitiveness of U.S. manufacturers across a range of high-tech sectors. And if China slaps retaliatory tariffs on U.S. goods, U.S. manufacturers face the double-whammy of increased costs alongside reduced access to the Chinese market — the largest market for many
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.

Moreover, Trump’s tariffs are unlikely to significantly disrupt China’s industrial development via the Made in China 2025 program.
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on international trade negotiations has shown that the U.S. no longer has the leverage to dictate trade terms to China. Trump’s strategy overestimates China’s dependence on the U.S. market, which accounts for just 18 percent of China’s exports — more than 80 percent of China’s exports go elsewhere.

Continuing the aircraft example, China will soon be the
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. Chinese aircraft manufacturers initially will rely on sales to the country’s enormous domestic market; it will be many years before their exports are ready to compete in global markets. China’s aircraft manufacturers also are likely first to target other developing country markets and only much later seek to compete in advanced economies.

China’s own domestic market will provide the primary catalyst for its industrial upgrading. Even if Trump cut off access to the U.S. market entirely, it would not stop the development of China’s advanced industries.

In short, Trump’s tariffs are unlikely to achieve their stated goals. But a trade war between the two countries could rapidly spiral out of control and cause immense damage to the global economy.

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Ultra

Junior Member
This is just hilarious, I can't stop laughing. I can't stop laughing at how dumb the Americans are.

All I see in this anti-"Made in China 2025" movement is it just going to encourage China to hasten the pace and investments into this intiative, quicken the pace of advancement.

Americans just seem to be completely clueless at how to do this the right way, to get the result they want.
Telling someone NOT to do something and punishing them for it is certainly not the way to go, in fact it only encourages someone to do it as reactionary psychological behavior.
For China, Made-in-China 2025 is essential. There is no way to deviate from that. What Trump did only quicken the pace and harden the resolves for China to succeed.

The american really need to educate themselves in history. Just no long ago, back when Obama was still the president - seeing China became the leader in Super Computing, Obama banned the intel CPU export to China. That only quicken the pace of Chinese CPU development and the subsequent super computing champion Sunway TaihuLight was made with Chinese SW26010 manycore 64-bit RISC processors. It didn't stop the China, it only made China acutely aware how essential that is and poured more resources into it.

Alas, the United States of Amensia just seem to be completely oblivious to that fact, and try to repeat the history. There are more examples of this - like the prohibition era alcohol ban which only make people want alcohol more and making it extremly lucrative to get into the business. The high tech export ban to China is essentially going to do the same - making even more chinese firms get into the high tech business as it becomes what "people want" and thus lucrative. The other example is the history of how China develop its own nuke - when Russian cut off the technical assistance, it didn't stop China from developing the bomb, oh no.... only hasten the pace and dramatically increase the scale of creating the bomb, which allowed China to acquire Hydrogen bomb in the shortest development time in human history.

What the US does is basically creating a vacuum in the chinese market - effectively creating an urgent need that need to be fulfilled. Companies are going to leap to it to fulfill that vacuum as it suddenly becomes a niche with no dominant matured competitor. In the absence of such competitor these companies will grow rapidly as they easily become the market leaders and the only providers.

What United States should have done - to hinder China on this "Made in China 2025" intiative is actually opposite of what they should do. They flood the Chinese market with American high tech goods. They should have make american CPU chips incredibly cheap to buy - so cheap it push out the Chinese competitors in their home market. Make the Boeing planes twice as cheap to buy! So cheap that it is uneconomical for China to develop their own plane. But instead, Trump did exactly what's needed for China to succeed - by giving them the "NEED" to succeed.
 
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Today at 8:15 AM
Today at 2:56 AM
now
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The additional tariffs list released by the Trump administration on 200 billion US dollars' worth of Chinese imports is completely unacceptable, and China will be forced to take responding measures, China's Ministry of Commerce announced on Wednesday

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and now I read
Opinion: China should prepare for a full-scale trade war
2018-07-11 15:19 GMT+8
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The Trump administration on Tuesday released a list of new tariffs on 200 billion US dollars’ worth of Chinese goods. The tariffs of 10 percent will not go into effect immediately but will undergo a two-month review process, with hearings set for Aug. 20-23.

The Chinese Ministry of Commerce had protested on Friday against the impositions and said that it will immediately appeal to the World Trade Organization against US unilateralism.

If implemented, the tariffs will show that the attitude of the United States to the trade war has risen to a strategic level. And China needs to prepare for a full-scale trade war in the future.

Since Donald Trump was elected as the US president, China has been making great efforts to stabilize the US-China relationship.

President Trump visited China last November 8-10 and signed a 253.5-billion-US-dollar deal, a record in world economic cooperation. On behalf of the Chinese government, Vice Premier Liu He was involved in three rounds of trade negotiations with the US delegation. All these efforts did not prevent the White House from initiating the trade war.

Trump claimed that his main goal was to reduce the trade deficit with China but he chose to close his eyes to China’s huge contribution to the US economy and the fact that the two countries are in the different stages of the global value chain.

He also neglected that US companies made a much greater share of profits than their Chinese partners because the most added value from a product went to the US firms. He did not care that even though there was a deficit in trade in goods, a trade surplus existed in trade in services with China.

Usually, a trade war starts because a country wants to protect its employment or welfare during a recession. Apparently, this is not the case in the US at present. The trade war will be an extra disturbance to the US macro-economy which is performing very well.

A US-based economics research company says that the impact will be worse than initially expected by Trump’s government and around 400,000 jobs in the US will be affected. Because of China’s retaliatory measures, billions of dollars worth of exports in some states, especially those backing Trump in the election, will be at risk.

Some US companies and financial institutions expressed their worries about the possible negative effects of trade conflicts on future investments which were being scaled back or postponed.

Nobody could win in a trade war. Tackling a trade deficit is just a superficial reason. It is the real intention for Donald Trump government to suppress China’s development. Therefore, the trade friction may last long.

There are also voices in the US government pushing for a comprehensive war against China. In the Rand Corporation report "War with China," they estimated all possible fallout of US-China wars including economic and geopolitical wars. It seems that the US government has already made full preparations at all levels.

For China, it is significant to prevent the trade conflicts developing into comprehensive confrontations, or even worse, a cold war. However, China also needs to be totally ready for the worst.

The Chinese Ministry of Commerce needs to conduct a detailed analysis of the latest US list, analyze the specific implications, and strive to minimize the impact on China's trade.

In the short run, China should transform its growth model into a one more dependent on its domestic demand and consumption. Chinese companies have to explore more trade partners rather than being exceedingly dependent on the US market.

On the other hand, China should maintain its strategic focus and take the trade war as a new opportunity for economic reform and opening up to the outside world.
sounds defensive to me: expected 'sanctions help China, US destroys itself' type of ... lines
 
now looked up Jun 19, 2018
on top of us.cnn.com is
Trump threatens China with new tariffs on another $200 billion of goods
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anyway:
China's MOC spokesperson makes remarks about U.S. announcement of list of tariffs on 200-bln-USD Chinese goods
Xinhua| 2018-07-11 14:30:31
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A spokesperson for China's Ministry of Commerce Wednesday expressed solemn protest against the United States' announcement of a list of tariffs on 200 billon U.S. dollars of Chinese goods.

"The United States has unveiled the list of tariffs in an escalating manner. This is totally unacceptable, and we express our solemn protest against this," the spokesperson said.

"By doing this, the United States is hurting China, hurting the whole world, and hurting itself. The irrational act goes against the will of the people.

"China is shocked by what the United States did. To defend the core interests of the nation and the fundamental interests of the people, the Chinese government will, as always, be forced to take necessary countermeasures. In the meantime, we appeal to the international community to jointly defend free trade rules and the multilateral trade regime and fight trade bullying.

"We will immediately lodge an additional complaint with the WTO over the unilateral acts of the United States."
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Today at 8:15 AM

and now I read
Opinion: China should prepare for a full-scale trade war
2018-07-11 15:19 GMT+8
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sounds defensive to me: expected 'sanctions help China, US destroys itself' type of ... lines

I don't see anything defensive about the article It is true that tariff only hurt oneself No one win in trae war but American consumer will be hit hard It is not possible to replace Chinese product overnight It take decade to built the capacity and supplier ecosystem.
China is more resilient and better equipped to take the hit from tariff compare to US. And the population will rally around the flag. This is nothing compare to embargo in 1950's. Chinese economy is now so much stronger and trade world wide

Read this article by Goldman and his conclusion is
A trade war is a lose-lose proposition, but the administration should not operate under the illusion that China is more fragile than the United States.
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Consumption is America’s Achilles’ heel in a trade war
A trade war produces only losers and the Washington administration should not operate under the illusion that China is more fragile than the US
By
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JULY 11, 2018 4:41 PM (UTC+8)
Consumers in the United States are starting to curtail their spending. Photo: AFP/Herika Martinez
US household budgets are so stretched that relatively small price increases cause a reduction in spending. That already is clear from consumer response to rising oil prices.

If the Trump administration’s tariffs on Chinese and other imports turn into noticeable price increases, consumer spending could crumple in a matter of months, and US economic growth could fall to close to zero from an estimated 2.8% to 4% for the second quarter.


Tariff-driven price increases on big-ticket household items – such as the 8% year-on-year jump in the price of washing machines last month – would provoke consumer pushback and lower consumer spending.

The Trump recovery would begin to falter before the end of 2018. Nothing like the 2008 crash is in the offing, to be sure, but a disappointed consumer economy means an angry electorate, and political blowback against the administration’s tariff policy.

Let me spell it out in a few charts.

First, the 2.7% annual growth in hourly earnings is now equal to the annual rate of increase in the Consumer Price Index. By this measure, employment growth has brought no real increase in spending power.

Screen-Shot-1-1-1.png


Secondly, consumers are saving barely 2.5% of their personal income. That’s equal to the low savings rate registered in 2007, when households still sat on a decade’s worth of capital gains in home prices. With real wages stagnant, consumers are spending virtually all their personal income.

Screen-Shot-2.png


Third, consumer debt service as a percentage of disposable income has risen back to the levels we last saw just before the 2008 crash.

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Nonetheless, households continue to use their credit cards to pay for consumption. During the past year, we observed a tick-for-tick correspondence between changes in credit card debt outstanding and changes in retail sales.



Screen-Shot-4.png


I observed in a June 30 report for Asia Times that household consumption already shows a worrying sensitivity to oil prices. Monthly changes in consumption move inversely with monthly changes in the oil price. In other words, when the cost of a tank of gas goes up, US consumers immediately cut back on purchases of something else.

Screen-Shot-5.png


For the past 20 years, falling inflation has been a bifurcated story. The cost of services is up 80% in the past two decades, while the cost of durable goods has been by 20%. That’s because the price of smartphones, consumer electronics and household appliances has fallen due to cheap imports from China and other low-cost producers.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
(cont)
fallen due to cheap imports from China and other low-cost producers.

Screen-Shot-6.png


Tariffs will raise the price of consumer goods, adding to the already-noticeable impact of oil prices on consumption. China’s exports to the US go straight into the US consumption basket.

Screen-Shot-7.png


President Trump’s political base of middle-class households will feel the pain almost immediately. Americans have come to expect low prices for consumer durables, and they won’t like it if they have to pay more at a moment when household budgets are already squeezed by zero real wage growth and rising debt service costs.

A trade war will be painful for both China and the United States. Americans aren’t used to this particular kind of economic pain. That makes the United Stats more vulnerable than China.

A trade war is a lose-lose proposition, but the administration should not operate under the illusion that China is more fragile than the United States.
 
I don't see anything defensive about the article ...
thought the scribbler might 'hit hard', an example would be Apr 6, 2018
now I read
Commentary: U.S. tariffs must prepare to meet their doom
Xinhua| 2018-04-06 22:15:33
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LOL! "foreign aid"
, that's why I found the article "defensive"

EDIT
now noticed what's not "defensive": Great Depression, "the loss of 134,000 American jobs" etc. inside
Commentary: U.S. trade bullying leads nowhere
Xinhua 2018-07-11 20:51:59
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The latest proposed tariffs from the Trump administration underlines its trade bullying and adds fuel to the retaliation spiral in the largest trade war in global economic archives.

Days after tariffs on 34 billion U.S. dollars of Chinese goods went into effect, the Trump administration is readying tariffs on another 200 billion U.S. dollars of Chinese imports.

For months, the Chinese government has patiently urged the U.S. administration to stop bullying its trade partners, stop trampling the multilateral trade system, and apply an open mind to achieve win-win.

Rather than reversing its warmongering, the U.S. administration has doubled down on the unilateralism. There is no justification for such action, and for China, there is no better way than fighting back in defending its core national interests.

History often seems to repeat itself.

After U.S. President Herbert Hoover signed the tariff act in 1930, which raised tariffs on more than 20,000 imported goods, America's major trading partners punched back with retaliatory tariffs.

Such a protectionist move helped slash U.S. exports by more than half, and historians believe helped exacerbate the Great Depression.

As the American economy is now embracing a hard-earned recovery, it is important to enhance the resilience and competitiveness of the U.S. economy by cooperating with its trade partners. Protectionism and isolationism will only make things worse.

The new tariff proposal amounts to another multi-billion-dollar tax on American businesses and families. China's retaliation equates to billions of new tariffs on U.S. exporters.

Tariffs that beget tariffs that beget more tariffs only intensify the trade war that will cost American jobs and economic growth.

According to the National Retail Federation, if the U.S. government fully implements its threatened tariffs, the country's gross domestic product (GDP) may decline by nearly 3 billion dollars and lead to the loss of 134,000 American jobs.

Unilateral trade actions can be disruptive and may even prove counterproductive to the functioning of the global economic and trade system, said Christine Lagarde, the managing director of the International Monetary Fund.

China has never feared a trade war with the United States and has ample ammunition and alternatives to deal with the U.S. threats. China will soon file new complaints at the World Trade Organization to safeguard its legitimate interests.

It is in the best interests of the Trump administration to work constructively with China and other trade partners to address trade and investment disputes.
see my point now?
 
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...

anyway:
China's MOC spokesperson makes remarks about U.S. announcement of list of tariffs on 200-bln-USD Chinese goods
Xinhua| 2018-07-11 14:30:31
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now
FM responds to U.S. announcement of list of tariffs on 200-bln-USD Chinese goods
Xinhua| 2018-07-11 20:41:57
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China will take necessary countermeasures to resolutely safeguard its rights and interests, a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson said Wednesday after the United States announced a list of tariffs on 200 billion U.S. dollars of Chinese goods Tuesday.

"The behavior of the U.S. is typical 'trade bullying," spokesperson Hua Chunying said at a daily press briefing.

"This is a war between unilateralism and multilateralism, between protectionism and free trade, and between power and rules," Hua said. "China will work with the international community to jointly safeguard the multilateral trading system and rules."

In fact, the trade war launched by the U.S. has already caused concerns by the international community. International Monetary Fund (IMF) chief Christine Lagarde, World Trade Organization (WTO) chief Roberto Azevedo, former U.S. Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan, and the governor of the Bank of England Mark Carney all expressed their concerns or warned of the consequences of the U.S. move.

Hua said, countries around the world are interdependent, sharing weal and woe, since their economies are integrated into the global industrial and value chain to varying degrees.

Holding on to the outdated zero-sum mentality and willfully launching the trade war not only undermines interests of the two parties directly involved, but also others in the global industrial chain, and there will be no winner, Hua said.

Forty percent of Chinese export goods and two thirds of its export high-tech products are made by foreign enterprises in China, according to Hua.

"The U.S. is not only opening fire to the whole world, but also firing at itself," Hua said. "Authoritative sources of the world economic circles have said that the irrational behavior of the U.S. is dangerous, hurts itself and others, and is discredited."

She called on the international community to resolutely reject unilateralism, oppose protectionism, and safeguard the multilateral trading system and free trade rules.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
thought the scribbler might 'hit hard', an example would be Apr 6, 2018
, that's why I found the article "defensive"

EDIT
now noticed what's not "defensive": Great Depression, "the loss of 134,000 American jobs" etc. inside
Commentary: U.S. trade bullying leads nowhere
Xinhua 2018-07-11 20:51:59
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see my point now?

I still don't see your point It is bland statement No where do I see they are scare or anything. You just seeing thing To begin with China is more self sufficient than US and export make only 19% of the economy and US share is less than 17% If you multiply 0.17X0.19=0.03 or 3% of the GDP
Nothing to sweat about That is assuming the export stop completely

which is impossible Plus the tariff is only 10% which the American consumer has to pay. It will reduced export But they can sell it somewhere else SEA or Europe.
As to American import they can buy it from somewhere else see the next article
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
The trade war is a good wake up call for China to diversify our trade away from the US & cultivate multiple alternatives.Also Manchuria is the origin of Soy Bean The reason they don't grow it because of Skew Chinese subsidy toward grain like wheat and corn. And Cheap American soy. So the farmer prefer to grow those grain But now they also provide subsidy for Soy bean They also told to grew Soy
Via Mr Unknown
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JULY 10, 2018 / 4:22 AM / UPDATED 15 HOURS AGO
Global trade war to be a boon for Black Sea grain
Polina Devitt, Hallie Gu 4 MIN READ

MOSCOW/BEIJING (Reuters) - Trade conflict between the United States and China could further boost already booming grain and oilseed exports from the Black Sea region, traders and analysts said.

New opportunities to sell wheat, corn and soybeans to China and even the European Union are set to open up for the region’s main exporters Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan, whose recent ascendancy has already ended full U.S. dominance in markets such as Nigeria and Mexico.

The United States and China slapped tit-for-tat duties on $34 billion of each other’s imports on Friday, with Beijing accusing Washington of triggering the “largest-scale trade war”.

The Black Sea region’s share of the international wheat market climbed to about 37 percent in 2017/18, according to the International Grains Council, comfortably topping the United States and Canada combined.

China is the world’s top wheat producer but still imports about 4 million tonnes of the grain each year.

In the 2017/18 season (June/May) the United States exported 902,400 tonnes of wheat to China, down from 1.56 million in the prior season, according to U.S. government data.

For Kazakh wheat, the pick-up in Chinese imports started due to Beijing’s Belt Road policy and before the trade dispute took off, but the tariff row accentuates the trend.

“We have just started buying wheat from Kazakhstan this year. Our first order was for several thousand tonnes,” a Chinese wheat trader said. “We will see about sales and profits. If they’re good, we will increase imports for sure. It is related to the current trade war.”

“Now that you can’t bring in American wheat, it gives us more incentive to buy from Kazakhstan. And once your trading of Kazakh wheat reaches a certain volume, you get government preferential support,” the trader added.

Among the risks for this strategy are difficult logistics and unstable quality seen in Kazakh and Russian wheat, said another trader who has been looking for more Kazakh wheat deals.

Black Sea wheat may not be able fully to replace its U.S. counterpart due to different quality grades, meaning some traders will also turn to Canadian wheat, he added.

According to statistical data, Russia and Ukraine, whose traditional buyers had been in North Africa and the Middle East, boosted wheat supplies to Vietnam, Indonesia, the Philippines, Spain, Tunisia, Tanzania, Sudan, Oman, Mexico and Kenya in the 2017/18 season.

One location in which Russia has taken away from U.S. wheat market share is Nigeria, which like Brazil traditionally favors a higher-protein grain such as U.S. hard red winter.

PRICES LOUDER THAN WORDS
In a sign that may worry some U.S. wheat traders further, Brazil bought Russian wheat in July for the first time in eight years.

“In this new era of trade wars, prices talk louder than words,” said Swithun Still, director of Solaris, which specializes in trading Russian agricultural commodities.

“It’s likely that China will aim to buy more grains and oilseeds from the Black Sea and more beans from South America. Mexico has been buying lots of Russian wheat and will continue as prices are attractive compared to U.S. wheat,” he added.

The trade spat could also boost exports of Black Sea corn and soybeans.

Russian authorities recently reported a record 850,000 tonnes of soybean exports to China in July 2017-May 2018, more than double the 340,000 tonnes a year earlier, Svetlana Malysh, Kiev-based Black Sea agriculture market analyst at Thomson Reuters, said.

“Black Sea countries, mainly Russia, may intensify their soybean shipments to China in case of any U.S. deliveries’ disruption,” she added.

The trade conflict is also a chance for Ukraine to boost supplies of its corn to the European Union, which imposed a 25 percent import duty on U.S. corn in June, Malysh said.

China can also turn to Ukraine and Russia for corn in case it reduces purchases from the United States, according to Matt Ammermann, commodity risk manager with INTL FCStone.

Additional reporting by Michael Hirtzer and Natalia Zinets; Editing by Nigel Hunt and Dale Hudson
 
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