To address its own and country biggest weakness, Huawei must advance its chip manufacturing.

Weaasel said:

The highly advanced lithographic equipment produced by the Chinese Academy of Sciences must be mass produced quickly.

China and Chinese must realize that the US is prepared for all out economic warfare and as such the state must be fully prepared to assist critical high tech entities and more than double down on Made in China 2025.

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That's s long term goal to have its own lithography equipment at advanced node.
For the time being, at least for next 3 to 5 yrs, China can stockpile those second hand equipment. Global foundry is selling alot of its equipment. And order as much as EUV equipment from ASML as possible for now, each one cost over $100million

tower9 said:

I agree that the US has also benefited from the relationship. But what the US has benefited is nothing in comparison to how China has benefited. China today is in a completely different universe compared to what it was before.

If the US never engaged China, it would probably have a smaller GDP and its consumer products would be more expensive, but its dominance in the world would be unquestioned. It would still be the first world, advanced nation that it is.

Global politics is about relative power. In this way, the US has shot itself in the foot by engaging with China and allowing so much access to its resources to China.

And absolutely that is what Trump is doing. And it is COMPLETELY LOGICAL. Why would a dominant power allow a subversive power an opportunity to challenge it. Think about it? WHY?

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It's America's fault they underestimated China. They likely thought China would have never been able to innovate due to their communist government system. Therefore, they were more than happy to have a billion slaves working in sweatshops.

All this hindsight is silly. Might as well say Europe could have kept their superpower status if they never colonized the Americas.

Bob Smith said:

It's America's fault they underestimated China. They likely thought China would have never been able to innovate due to their communist government system. Therefore, they were more than happy to have a billion slaves working in sweatshops.

All this hindsight is silly. Might as well say Europe could have kept their superpower status if they never colonized the Americas.

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No doubt. As a Chinese American who's traveled to Asia quite a bit, I've been deeply exposed to both sides. For many years, I would hear Americans joke about China like it's a joke and inside I would only think, "Well, you'll see one day and you won't be laughing anymore."

Honestly, Joe Biden would be a dream come true for China. He'll continue a long line of self deluded neoliberal American presidents who love the smell of their own self righteous farts. He'll joke about China being an actual competitor and he'll lecture China about human rights like it was a misbehaving child.

Trump, in contrast, is the first American president to deeply respect China. He sees China as not only an equal but an extremely powerful competitor, that will overpower the US if he doesn't urgently do something about it. In other words, Trump is awake to China whereas most American politicians were sleeping. That's why he's so scary to China's government because it's like the Chinese were Ninjas creeping through the night, waiting to steal the crown, and now Trump has shone a major foghorn light on them.

China's only hope is that Trump is distracted by the chaos of American politics and is forced to compromise to an extent, then is voted out of office. Otherwise, it is going to be a nightmarish next 6 years for China, and if they want to be No. 1, they are going to have to bleed and fight for the crown. Otherwise they don't deserve it.

But US has a very point of not allowing China to 5G market dominance by piggpack on US tech.
China ought to achieve dominance through its own tech

Sadly, China still doesn't know what's the real problem is!

After ZTE incidence, they thought they know the real issue, but they don't!

Alot companies out there start to design chip usually those big ticket items like CPU and ignore many other smaller equally critical analog components and have TSMC manufacture for them. Well that's the issue.
China recent big talk of 5G, AI is totally misplaced when it should go back to basic science research for chip manufacturing and process, and galvanize the whole country to develop the equipment needed for the industry
Stop talking about 5G and AI!!

Gatekeeper said:

Absolutely, to minimise the benefits US got from the associations with China is unfair.

To say the relationship only benefitted US "corporate bottom line and cheap consumer goods" doesn't show the whole picture. While at the same time benefitted China greatly, showed not only lack of understanding, but lack of respect for China's OWN efforts in lifting millions of people out of poverty.

Let me start by saying all country have INTEREST, and when the relationship began 40 years ago, it was because it was in the US interest! Period!

It was in the US interest that US can use China to counterweight the Soviets.
It was in the US interest to have a vast pool of EDUCATED workforce willing to work and get paid one twentyth of US workforce, thus providing cheap goods to the US consumer. In doing so, have kept US inflation low, leading to higher growth rate (some economists estimate that US economy could be as much as a third smaller if it wasn't for the sweats of the Chinese)!

And as for corporate America benefitting, well, the corporate taxes have fueled US economy and its defence industries.

So while I agreed that US at the moment is only acting in its own interest to stop a rival from overtaken it.

We must also acknowledge that the past 40 years, the US has also acted in its own interest, and not out of any friendship or goodwill in helping China!

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I think you misunderstood me. China's development is largely due to China's own efforts. China focused on development like a maniac, while the US self-sabotaged itself by its lack of focus and distractions in the Middle East.

What I am referring to when I am talking about relative benefits is strictly limited to the US-China relationship. Look, if you compare what both gained from the relationship, China's gains has VASTLY outnumbered America's gains. Of course, China's cheap labor and markets have tremendously benefited American corporations. As far as the American people and the relative power of the US? Not so much. If you do not understand this, you won't understand why Trump's message is so powerful or why he still has so much support even though he acts like a maniac.

China has DEEPLY benefited from its interactions with the US. China 40 years ago was a backward, communist, hell hole. Today it is the second superpower. Tell me, what has the US learned from China compared to what China has learned from the US? Literally China has taught the US NOTHING, while the US has taught China a MAJORITY of what it needed to develop. Where will China be today if it weren't for the millions of Chinese educated in MIT, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, UC Berkeley, UCLA, Cal Tech, etc etc?

If the US never engaged with China, it's GDP will be smaller, it's corporations wouldn't be as rich, but relatively it will still be unchallengeable. It will also have more of its industrial supply chain at home.

You can dislike what I'm saying, but you know it's the truth.

tower9 said:

No doubt. As a Chinese American who's traveled to Asia quite a bit, I've been deeply exposed to both sides. For many years, I would hear Americans joke about China like it's a joke and inside I would only think, "Well, you'll see one day and you won't be laughing anymore."

Honestly, Joe Biden would be a dream come true for China. He'll continue a long line of self deluded neoliberal American presidents who love the smell of their own self righteous farts. He'll joke about China being an actual competitor and he'll lecture China about human rights like it was a misbehaving child.

Trump, in contrast, is the first American president to deeply respect China. He sees China as not only an equal but an extremely powerful competitor, that will overpower the US if he doesn't urgently do something about it. In other words, Trump is awake to China whereas most American politicians were sleeping. That's why he's so scary to China's government because it's like the Chinese were Ninjas creeping through the night, waiting to steal the crown, and now Trump has shone a major foghorn light on them.

China's only hope is that Trump is distracted by the chaos of American politics and is forced to compromise to an extent, then is voted out of office. Otherwise, it is going to be a nightmarish next 6 years for China, and if they want to be No. 1, they are going to have to bleed and fight for the crown. Otherwise they don't deserve it.

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Well that's a fallacy.
Try to be no 1 is an accusation US placed on China when China goal is to upgrade and survive.

Belt and Road is way to export excessive capacity at home and use yuan oversea is in process of avoid US financial economic sanction in the future

Talk of chip independence by China because they know US would block them one day.

Made in China 2025 is all about independence at home and get out of middle income trap.

It's about survival.

Not sure how US interpreted that as China trying to be number 1 when US market has no China hightech goods or cars whatsoever.

tidalwave said:

But US has a very point of not allowing China to 5G market dominance by piggpack on US tech.
China ought to achieve dominance through its own tech

Sadly, China still doesn't know what's the real problem is!

After ZTE incidence, they thought they know the real issue, but they don't!

Alot companies out there start to design chip usually those big ticket items like CPU and ignore many other smaller equally critical analog components and have TSMC manufacture for them. Well that's the issue.
China recent big talk of 5G, AI is totally misplaced when it should go back to basic science research for chip manufacturing and process, and galvanize the whole country to develop the equipment needed for the industry
Stop talking about 5G and AI!!

Click to expand...

I honestly think Xi Jinping is one of the most foolish and self-absorbed leaders in modern Chinese history. He is a power hungry narcissist, and loves to project an image of power and control. But by constantly announcing how China will dominate the future technologies of the world, he had zero foresight into what kind of reaction this would provoke from the US. Now he's learning.

Unfortunately, I think this is a very common problem among Chinese people, from China. They have very little understanding of foreign cultures, very little ability to communicate and represent themselves in an effective or positive manner, and very little ability to understand how their behavior is judged by foreign people. This is why Chinese tourists are disliked by most countries, and why in cities like Vancouver where there are large numbers of Chinese nationals, they are generally deeply disliked by the locals. I don't know why other Asian countries like Japanese, Thais, etc do not have this problem. They are far more sensitive to how they are perceived.

tidalwave said:

Well that's a fallacy.
Try to be no 1 is an accusation US placed on China when China goal is to upgrade and survive.

Belt and Road is way to export excessive capacity at home and use yuan oversea is in process of avoid US financial economic sanction in the future

Talk of chip independence by China because they know US would block them one day.

Made in China 2025 is all about independence at home and get out of middle income trap.

It's about survival.

Not sure how US interpreted that as China trying to be number 1 when US market has no China hightech goods or cars whatsoever.

Click to expand...

If you don't think China's goal is to be No. 1, I think you are either dishonest or not willing to face facts.

If China continues to develop, it will be No. 1 any ways. This is inevitable. The US does not want to be No. 2. It's really that simple.

Also, Xi has made it clear he wants China to be No. 1. That's what his Made in China 2025 policy is about, and his projection that China should dominate AI by 2030.

tidalwave said:

Well that's a fallacy.
Try to be no 1 is an accusation US placed on China when China goal is to upgrade and survive.

Belt and Road is way to export excessive capacity at home and use yuan oversea is in process of avoid US financial economic sanction in the future

Talk of chip independence by China because they know US would block them one day.

Made in China 2025 is all about independence at home and get out of middle income trap.

It's about survival.

Not sure how US interpreted that as China trying to be number 1 when US market has no China hightech goods or cars whatsoever.

Click to expand...

I don't understand how you can interpret China's goal as just trying to survive; the whole world knows that China only wants the gold medal. Survival is incredibly easy; cozy up to number one. Help the US leverage against Russia, North Korea, Iran, open up critical Chinese sectors to US control. When the US is comfortable that it can call all the shots and ensure that China cannot outgrow it technologically or economically, it will provide everything China needs and make life very comfortable, as long as China is happy to be its number 2 man.

Enough of that fantasy; China's goal is to become technologically independent AND cutting edge so that it becomes invulnerable to American control and can outgrow the USA to become number one without constraint. The whole world knows that.

manqiangrexue said:

I don't understand how you can interpret China's goal as just trying to survive; the whole world knows that China only wants the gold medal. Survival is incredibly easy; cozy up to number one. Help the US leverage against Russia, North Korea, Iran, open up critical Chinese sectors to US control. When the US is comfortable that it can call all the shots and ensure that China cannot outgrow it technologically or economically, it will provide everything China needs and make life very comfortable, as long as China is happy to be its number 2 man.

Enough of that fantasy; China's goal is to become technologically independent AND cutting edge so that it becomes invulnerable to American control and can outgrow the USA to become number one without constraint. The whole world knows that.

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I think that if we went back in time and for some reason, Chiang Kai Shek and the KMT won the civil war, China's fate would've been very secure. Life would've been very comfortable for China as America's No. 1 ally. Eventually, China would've outgrown the US and maybe today it would be the largest superpower, but it would've been a far smoother ride. Actually, I'm surprised it's been so smooth thus far even with China being a communist nation and opposed to most of American foreign policy. That's why I think Trump's actions are actually far more logical than other past US presidents.

Obviously, as a Chinese American, I wish we had a world where China and the US are best friends. But I know that'll never happen. The best possible outcome is for the China and the US to have a controlled rivalry. Now I don't even know if that's possible.