To address its own and country biggest weakness, Huawei must advance its chip manufacturing.

gelgoog said:

I do not know about that. The founder of TSMC is fairly antagonistic towards the PRC. But TSMC has factories in China. The one they have at Nanjing, for example, was inaugurated on October 31st last year. It uses 300mm wafers and can manufacture chips at 16 nm. Even if, for whatever reason, Huawei can't manufacture at 7 nm in Taiwan, which I doubt will happen, Huawei can at least still manufacture their older designs. That would mean they would be using 2 year old designs but at least it is better than nothing.

This is one reason why I think Trump's efforts will fail to kill China's semiconductor growth. He started this way too late. Just look at the date that factory started operations for example. China has splurged huge amounts of money bringing chip factories to China and most investments became operational last year. Plus Trump is being quite blunt and clumsy with his sanctions.

Also, Huawei can simply spin-off HiSilicon as its own independent company. Then it wouldn't be under sanctions anymore. Even if Huawei themselves couldn't use the leading edge chips, HiSilicon could sell the designs to companies like Oppo. Which aren't being sanctioned. This would also help kill Qualcomm in the Chinese handset manufacturer market. Only reason the other Chinese companies use Qualcomm instead of HiSilicon's chips is because they simply aren't allowed to buy them. So it would kill two birds with one stone. If the US then sanctioned Oppo in addition to Huawei then it would make their dirty game obvious to anyone.

Last time the US imposed ITAR on satellites to try to stop China it made European satellite manufacturers develop their own fully indigenous and vertical technology they could resell to other countries without getting in the US's dirty game. That nearly killed the US satellite technology sector. I think Trump is just repeating that mistake again.

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Had he done this the minute he was elected it might have actually worked. Now I think it is way too late.

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I don't think President of TSMC is antagonistic toward PRC. But they are under incredible short leash by the Taiwanese government. When the chips are done, TSMC is not going to sell to the PRC for the following two reasons. First, TSMC themselves can be put out of business because most of the equipment come from USA. Second, the current pro-TI are looking for any way to curry favor with the America and they can do really bad things to TSMC and its employees.

By the way, this will be a great chance to finally create semiconductor independence for China. But it will involve reducing American equipment as much as possible in the supply chain. But it will need Xi's approval because Trump will not be happy at all.

s002wjh said:

he is not defending america he is telling the truth. US law can decide who to sell their products. for example if US found some company selling products to iran which include US parts, they can ban that company. They are the producer and owner of those product, they can sell who ever they want, thats the reality. Just like if i have some product you want, but i dont want sell to you, there is nothing you can do.

America are in debt but as long US $$ are the reserve currency, people gonna buy it. US can just print $$$, its helicopter money.

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I don't think Trump cares about the law at all. This whole trade war is because America want to cut China down in half before it gets too big. It has no bearing on any law at all. They are just excuses.

Faithlock said:

What? I can't believe my eyes. Are you really defending America?

I am sorry. This is very difficult for me to read. You are defending America again.

You are defending America again.

There are a lot of things China can do to counter attack. There are many advantages that Xi has over Trump. China is rich and America is a debtor nation. Xi can spend money while Trump has to get Congress approval (for big money anyway). Xi has all the time in the world while Trump has either 1 or 5 years. There are hundreds of things China can do that can cause America pain.

This is the only good point in this tread. This is also the reason I bite my tongue for 1 and 1/2 years. But after 1.5 years and you saw the train is heading in the wrong direction, maybe it is time to tell the government "Hey, maybe it is time to change direction"

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Yes, my friend, I am defending America. America does many dastardly despicable things, but refusing to give tech to rival countries is its right. If China wants to defeat the US, it must be prepared for every underhanded tactic and quite frankly it is stupid to want to defeat the US with American technology (unless you've stolen or mastered it). How can you expect the US to sit there and continue to sell you things that you are using to obliterate American companies with? It's a superpower, not a super retard! If you didn't have a defense against the US pulling away its own arm when you are using it to beat its body, how can you expect to win??

If Trump has 1-5 years and Xi's has much time, then you are implying a waiting out game and if that is what's happening, we wouldn't see movement now, would we?

Why do we need a change in direction? Currently, China-USA trade deficit is increasing, Chinese GDP growth is robust, Europe is turning on the US to embrace Chinese 5G and the attack on ZTE has already inspired a great many initiatives to home-grow technology such as Huawei and no doubt other Chinese companies researching spare tires in anticipation of a US ban. This is MIC2025 fast-forwarded. I'm not hating this direction.

So you said there are hundreds of things to do to cause America pain, but would they achieve the objective? I didn't ask for 100 things; I asked what precisely would you do differently to help ZTE?

By the way you're criticizing the government, it seems like you have a way to get ZTE off the hook completely unscathed and to force the US to continue to sell it components that it uses to supply Iran. How would you do this?

China dusted off Korean war movies
China’s state television aired three classic Chinese films featuring the Chinese army’s heroic roles in the Korean War from Thu to Sat, replacing the previously scheduled programs, prompting wide discussions online amid the simmering China-US trade war.




Fighting word from Global time editorial
Time to discard any illusions about the US
Source:Global Times Published: 2019/5/17 22:49:35

A letter written by He Tingbo, president of HiSilicon, a semiconductor company owned by Huawei, was made public on Friday. The letter is a touching one and has won public support. In the letter, He said that employees of the company embarked on the most stirring journey in technology history in recent years to make backup products for Huawei and now these products will finally be put to use.

Huawei is not only strong but wise, sober-minded and tenacious. Cutting off supplies from the US will not defeat Huawei, which has long been preparing for the dark moment. On the contrary, Huawei will start getting even stronger.
Huawei is the symbol of China's ability to do independent research. As a private company, it is the forerunner of China's reform and opening-up. It has been deeply engaged in the development of global communications and become the leader of 5G technology. That Huawei will not lose to the US is significant for China's response to the US' strategic suppression.

The US has completely abandoned commercial principles and disregarded law. Its barbaric behavior against Huawei by resorting to administrative power can be viewed as a declaration of war on China in the economic and technological fields. It is time that the Chinese people throw away their illusions. Compromise will not lead to US goodwill.
We must dare to compete with evil characteristics embedded in the US. While sticking to opening-up, China should become good at countering the US.

In this fight against the US, we should abide by international rules and take into consideration the general trend of China's reform and opening-up on the one hand. On the other hand, we should not be too gentle or worry about Western opinion. Any measure that can bite into the US and do no harm to China can be adopted.

Obviously, the US has strengthened multifaceted aggression beside its economic warfare. China's countermeasures in other fields should not be too soft either. We should abandon such thinking as not taking the lead to create trouble in China-US relations.

The trade war launched by the US is becoming more and more like real war. At its core is the US resorts to unscrupulous means to suppress China while China is committed to crushing US arrogance. The US has been telling its people that China would soon make compromises, and we must break such lies by making clear China will not sign any unequal deal.

The China-US trade war is reshaping this bilateral relationship. Chinese society must acknowledge that a fiercer strategic rivalry is unavoidable. Huawei cannot lose, nor can China. This is a real concern of our generation and the responsibility we should bear for China's future.

Posted in:

To assume that every member in the forum want to see a strong China with great cooperation between the people and government is a bit naive. An american or american supporter or China hater has every good reason to see the chinese govt struggle. They aren't wrong for their stand. I'm here with the assumption that 75% are china collapse wishers.

Faithlock said:

I don't think President of TSMC is antagonistic toward PRC. But they are under incredible short leash by the Taiwanese government. When the chips are done, TSMC is not going to sell to the PRC for the following two reasons. First, TSMC themselves can be put out of business because most of the equipment come from USA. Second, the current pro-TI are looking for any way to curry favor with the America and they can do really bad things to TSMC and its employees.

By the way, this will be a great chance to finally create semiconductor independence for China. But it will involve reducing American equipment as much as possible in the supply chain. But it will need Xi's approval because Trump will not be happy at all.

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YES. This exactly. I don't know if Wilbur Ross or Lightizer know this BUT this Huawei treatment will certainly help to wake up any old CPC party senior who is too stubborn to sink the Billions into Chinese semiconductor and vertical integration instead of the traditional infrastructure projects. Imagine some 500 billion flowing into the semiconductor R&D of China for the next 5 to 10 years. That would MCGA.

Faithlock said:

I don't think Trump cares about the law at all. This whole trade war is because America want to cut China down in half before it gets too big. It has no bearing on any law at all. They are just excuses.

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trump dont care, however those product are still design by US company. they can sell to whoever they want. Just like china can cancel US pork, can tell tourist not visiting SK/taiwan during tension raise. The only option is for china not overly rely on US semiconductors by making their own.

Shaolian said:

Exactly, this is the kind of mindless blaming/cursing that I see a lot of Hong Kong people do to their Motherland, especially those in the media. Mostly it's done with glee as well. I consider this as slave mentality.

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Most of them are young and loyal to a particular religion, with anglicized names as well. Some sort of passive religious fanaticism and naive short sighted attempts to subvert the state and therefore the nation. I'd say that roughly 300,000 of such politically active, bothersome individuals are there within HK. SAD Individuals. They are still "zipperheads" to their redneck brothers and sisters. That's the beautiful joke in all of this.
Some percentage might genuinely be rallying for maintaining the status quo of two systems.
Bad apples exist in any basket (country).

manqiangrexue said:

Yes, my friend, I am defending America. America does many dastardly despicable things, but refusing to give tech to rival countries is its right. If China wants to defeat the US, it must be prepared for every underhanded tactic and quite frankly it is stupid to want to defeat the US with American technology (unless you've stolen or mastered it). How can you expect the US to sit there and continue to sell you things that you are using to obliterate American companies with? It's a superpower, not a super retard! If you didn't have a defense against the US pulling away its own arm when you are using it to beat its body, how can you expect to win??

If Trump has 1-5 years and Xi's has much time, then you are implying a waiting out game and if that is what's happening, we wouldn't see movement now, would we?

Why do we need a change in direction? Currently, China-USA trade deficit is increasing, Chinese GDP growth is robust, Europe is turning on the US to embrace Chinese 5G and the attack on ZTE has already inspired a great many initiatives to home-grow technology such as Huawei and no doubt other Chinese companies researching spare tires in anticipation of a US ban. This is MIC2025 fast-forwarded. I'm not hating this direction.

So you said there are hundreds of things to do to cause America pain, but would they achieve the objective? I didn't ask for 100 things; I asked what precisely would you do differently to help ZTE?

By the way you're criticizing the government, it seems like you have a way to get ZTE off the hook completely unscathed and to force the US to continue to sell it components that it uses to supply Iran. How would you do this?

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Who would've thought...Trump is actually motivating China to achieve MADE IN CHINA 2025.

s002wjh said:

trump dont care, however those product are still design by US company. they can sell to whoever they want. Just like china can cancel US pork, can tell tourist not visiting SK/taiwan during tension raise. The only option is for china not overly rely on US semiconductors by making their own.

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But US company wants to sell them to China. It is the US government uses the trumped up (pun intended) charge of national security.

In terms of China not overly rely on US semiconductors by making their own. What do you think the previous Chinese administration was doing? Do you honest believe they had been sleeping on the job?

The following is what I wrote before about what President Jiang Zemin did to create China's Semiconductor Fab industry:

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/is...-by-banning-huawei.t8382/page-108#post-554205
and
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/is...-by-banning-huawei.t8382/page-112#post-554260

If you read the above two posts, do you honest believe China was asleep? No, China was wide awake. She had gone all in on the Semi ever since 2000.

Faithlock said:

But US company wants to sell them to China. It is the US government uses the trumped up (pun intended) charge of national security.

In terms of China not overly rely on US semiconductors by making their own. What do you think the previous Chinese administration was doing? Do you honest believe they had been sleeping on the job?

The following is what I wrote before about what President Jiang Zemin did to create China's Semiconductor Fab industry:

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/is...-by-banning-huawei.t8382/page-108#post-554205
and
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/is...-by-banning-huawei.t8382/page-112#post-554260

If you read the above two posts, do you honest believe China was asleep? No, China was wide awake. She had gone all in on the Semi ever since 2000.

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not everything throwing $$$ gonna work, these thing need clear planning, talents, resource and time. Yes US company want to sell it, but it can't that just the reality. i know china try to get good semi since 2000s, but it didn't success as they want to be. maybe now they are even more motivate, but they still need good plan and get talents.