The Sino-Russian Strategic Partnership starts to get serious!

Franklin

Captain
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The newest Russian jets, subs, missile's and a high speed train link are all bad idea's. China should invest in Russia's miniral and energy sector and cooperate with Russian on things like helicopter development and especially passenger jets and wide body planes as China is very weak in that area. And cooperation can benefit both countries. And China is already doing all of that right now, but the high speed train plan is in my view a bad investment. A high speed rail link connecting Beijing to Moscow. Does that make any economic sense ? I certainly don't see it. If people in Russia or Europe wants to travel to China they will do it by plane and freight doesn't use high speed rail.

China shouldn't buy any subs and jets from Russia as that poses new logistical challenges and that money should go to the domestic arms industry. China in the future may buy the S-400 missile system but I don't see much more beyond that.
 

delft

Brigadier
That's not considering stops, breaks in track along the way. Besides that would require a wholesale redesign of the entire shipping container industry as current box cars are not streamlined for high speed rail. As well as building is HSR lines from Spain to Asia. It might be a dream but neither one of us are likely to see it in our lifetimes.
Most likely this plan would stop at access to conventional rail line in Russia perhaps even contracting to upgrade Russian rail systems. Russia is third in miles of rail behind the US and PRC. But larger then both. Russian rail is also mixed with a large number of there rails being narrow or "Imperial gauge" both the PRC and US use Standard gauge. This means that a Train car from China's rails could be used in on any US track and a US train from the US could be loaded on a Chinese rail but neither can be used on all of Russian rail as the space between the rails is about a foot to close.
Also Russian rail is limited in scope. In the European part you can probably get anywhere in Russia. In the Asian part... Helicopter. Most Russian lines in Asia are southern with the occasional northern run until you hit Vladivostok. Then the lines get busy again. The vast majority of Siberia is only reached by air, and then predominantly Helicopter.
In rail transport in active countries six years is a long time. See #124 of this thread. It is not like California that now is asking for proposals to build trains to be put in operation on the high speed line between San Francisco and LA from 2028, if they get the financing arranged.
Rail transport between China and Germany has been vastly speeded up by improving the administrative activity necessaary for crossing borders, from more than a month to now fifteen days. I think it is now a train a week and likely to be increased soon. And this without increasing the running speed. I remember that in the EU international rail transport was at any rate when I last looked ( ten years ago ? ) very unimportants because trains were often held up at borders for 24 hours or more, while lorries crossed within ten hours forty years ago and they had later to wait even shorter times and now they don't wait at all.
There can be no objection to developing containers especially for rail transport as long as they still fit standard road transport methods. But streamline containers are not necessary. Some thirty (?) years ago there were proposals for "flat deck" aircraft in which the shipping containers were placed in the open on a deck at the position of the floor of an ordinary aircraft. I'm happy they were never built.
Break of track gauge is a bad idea. Spain used 1435 mm rail gauge for its high speed line while traditional Spanish and Portugese railways use 1660mm and 1000 mm.
Russian gauge is now 1520 mm, was 1524mm, so it's larger than standard gauge. In the units of the Roman Empire standard gauge is 4' 8.5", while Russian, Finnish and Irish gauge is 5'. The Russian and Finnish gauge was chosen in the nineteenth century to obstruct a Prussian invasion.
For Siberia you're not just forgetting An-2 and other aircraft but also the vastly more important water transport. In winter you run lorries on the rivers. And for a mine project you would build a dedicated railway if water transport wouldn't serve. When climate improves sufficiently and Siberia houses scores of large cities the railways will have been built.
 

A.Man

Major
The newest Russian jets, subs, missile's and a high speed train link are all bad idea's. China should invest in Russia's miniral and energy sector and cooperate with Russian on things like helicopter development and especially passenger jets and wide body planes as China is very weak in that area. And cooperation can benefit both countries. And China is already doing all of that right now, but the high speed train plan is in my view a bad investment. A high speed rail link connecting Beijing to Moscow. Does that make any economic sense ? I certainly don't see it. If people in Russia or Europe wants to travel to China they will do it by plane and freight doesn't use high speed rail.

China shouldn't buy any subs and jets from Russia as that poses new logistical challenges and that money should go to the domestic arms industry. China in the future may buy the S-400 missile system but I don't see much more beyond that.

China have too much $ on hand. It is too much, more than US$4 trillion too much Green Backs. You know what? China, just write a check, can buy everything Russia produced for next 3 years.
 

shen

Senior Member
The newest Russian jets, subs, missile's and a high speed train link are all bad idea's. China should invest in Russia's miniral and energy sector and cooperate with Russian on things like helicopter development and especially passenger jets and wide body planes as China is very weak in that area. And cooperation can benefit both countries. And China is already doing all of that right now, but the high speed train plan is in my view a bad investment. A high speed rail link connecting Beijing to Moscow. Does that make any economic sense ? I certainly don't see it. If people in Russia or Europe wants to travel to China they will do it by plane and freight doesn't use high speed rail.

China shouldn't buy any subs and jets from Russia as that poses new logistical challenges and that money should go to the domestic arms industry. China in the future may buy the S-400 missile system but I don't see much more beyond that.

China may be interested in the Amur SSK for technology transfer on single hull submarine construction. China don't have any experience in building single hull submarine. There is recent article in Chinese media extolling the virtues of smaller single hull submarine in the shallow water of China's coastal seas.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Why do I feel that some Western media cast a negative view on Russia-China partnership as the article below describes:
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What motivates such a reporting? Fear? Jealousy? Skepticism? or Ignorance?

Isn't peace between two giants in Asia/Europe something to celebrate around the world? Especially for those who claim to be global force for good?
The peace of Russia and China is good for everybody. What is the potential threat to anybody when they come together? I don't see one.

Please educate me on this. I am tired of the twist done by some mainstream media.
What do you think is wrong with Bloomberg's article? The facts in the story are mundane and widely accepted, and the analysis are in mainstream of most International Relations pundits I've read.
 

Lethe

Captain
What do you think is wrong with Bloomberg's article? The facts in the story are mundane and widely accepted, and the analysis are in mainstream of most International Relations pundits I've read.

It's the tone that's all wrong.

The reality is that even before the Ukraine crisis, Russia and China had a strong relationship and that this was projected to grow even stronger over the decades ahead. The recent crisis has created additional pressure on the Russian side to bring deals to fruition, and this has likely allowed China to get somewhat better terms than it would have otherwise. Russian concerns about becoming too dependent on China are real, but not dramatically moreso than in the past. It is not in China's interest to push Russia too greatly in these sensitive areas.

The reason western media has zeroed in on the 'Russian dependency' angle is out of displaced frustration that Russia cannot be pushed around as the west is used to doing with other countries. It's a predictable response, but a petulant one. The idea that Russia was in a better geopolitical position in the 1990s is simply laughable, and it is very telling that westerners think of this period as a good one, rather than an era that saw the rapid immiseration of a proud people, chaos on the streets, and the widespread looting of the state by western and domestic sharks. As much as Russians are under no illusion about Putin, nobody wants to go back to the 1990s.
 
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A.Man

Major
What do you think is wrong with Bloomberg's article? The facts in the story are mundane and widely accepted, and the analysis are in mainstream of most International Relations pundits I've read.

Spinning from nothing; disinformation, twisting facts, bashing China & Russia, trolling Americans hatred toward the countries.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
It's the tone that's all wrong.

The reality is that even before the Ukraine crisis, Russia and China had a strong relationship and that this was projected to grow even stronger over the decades ahead. The recent crisis has created additional pressure on the Russian side to bring deals to fruition, and this has likely allowed China to get somewhat better terms than it would have otherwise. Russian concerns about becoming too dependent on China are real, but not dramatically moreso than in the past. It is not in China's interest to push Russia too greatly in these sensitive areas.
Tone is subjective and reasonable people can disagree. I didn't see any tonal problems.

The bold portion of your own reply parallels what was written in the article.

The reason western media has zeroed in on the 'Russian dependency' angle is out of displaced frustration that Russia cannot be pushed around as the west is used to doing with other countries. It's a predictable response, but a petulant one. The idea that Russia was in a better geopolitical position in the 1990s is simply laughable, and it is very telling that westerners think of this period as a good one, rather than an era that saw the rapid immiseration of a proud people, chaos on the streets, and the widespread looting of the state by western and domestic sharks. As much as Russians are under no illusion about Putin, nobody wants to go back to the 1990s.
An alternate reason for Western media to "zero in" on Russians falling evermore squarely into China's orbit is to report news and analysis to interested readers. The author's motive may have nothing to do with being frustrated that Putin hasn't knuckled under Western sanctions.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
The article is the typical desperation from the media. This miscalculation comes from when the media and then Colin Powell adopted the fiction that China is planning to invade Russia scenario from Tom Clancy's The Bear and The Dragon as real. So people thought that Russia was so paranoid over China, no one would ever see them partnering in any way. This is not even a military alliance. That's how much paranoia they thought existed. Don't think this is a carefully thought analysis coming from the media. This is panic where they thought Russia would never get close to China which is also ironically why they thought it was safe to target Russia. The article is a result of panic from being wrong. They're portraying China as the big bad wolf yet why aren't they placing at the least the same sanctions on China if it's worse? Because this message is a manipulation for Russia only.

Also note how Xi and Putin are manipulated as lovers pictured in a pink heart. Like that doesn't have anything to do with Putin's criticize homophobia? They're trying to tap into Putin's homophobia and make him go, "Ewwwwwww!" and step back away from China. That's desperation in part by the media because they have nothing left but childish teases to use to intimidate.
 
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