The sinking of South Korean Corvette Cheonan

Pointblank

Senior Member
The German metallurgy and trace elements were found in the two wrecks. Can you provide Links to the cliam that the german Metallurgy and compound matched the 2003 NK torpedo ? Where is this 2003 NK torpedo ?

Wouldn't it make sense to provide and show both torpedos together to show that the markings are identical ? So far, I don't see any reference to compare, than "Just believe that".

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It just means that the North Koreans were sloppy in trying to hide an attack. Coupled with what was known about North Korean fleet movements at the timing of the sinking (a North Korean submarine and a support ship left port on March 23 and was spotted by American and South Korean intelligence near the attack area, and they didn't return to port until the 28th).

The explosive used by the torpedo was determined to be RDX (which has its origins in Germany). German torpedoes do not use this explosive, as they tend to use PBX. American torpedoes tend to use PBXN.
 

Orthan

Senior Member
Read a news article that RoK is bringing this case to the UN. Apparrently, this incident (if it is indeed an attack by DPRK) may be in breach of the existing armistice between the 2 Koreas that have been in place since the end of the Korean War.

Here's a link from yesterday's (23 May) news:

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There should be more updated news about RoK bringing the case to the UN soon.

this is going to put china in a dilema. Depending on how willing is south korea to negociate a UNSC, china could lose if it aproves/abstain the resolution, and lose if it vetoes.

IMHO, North korea went too far and its time for the international comunity to act
 

mobydog

Junior Member
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It just means that the North Koreans were sloppy in trying to hide an attack. Coupled with what was known about North Korean fleet movements at the timing of the sinking (a North Korean submarine and a support ship left port on March 23 and was spotted by American and South Korean intelligence near the attack area, and they didn't return to port until the 28th).

The explosive used by the torpedo was determined to be RDX (which has its origins in Germany). German torpedoes do not use this explosive, as they tend to use PBX. American torpedoes tend to use PBXN.

Your links provided are all about Markings, nothing about the metallurgy or compound trace.

So, a NK sub with a tender left port and returned to port = they did it ? By the way, i have not read that they were spotted near the attack area, only that they returned on the 28th. Links Please. Oh, BTW, I can also use your logic that US and SK were in the immediate area, The US did it for false flag, and the SK for friendly fire just as easily.

The explosive used by the torpedo was determined to be RDX (which has its origins in Germany). German torpedoes do not use this explosive, as they tend to use PBX. American torpedoes tend to use PBXN.
I loved those "tend to use" phases. Because it seems to tell me they do use RDX. BTW, provide "links" that the metals and elements found on the two wrecks are RDX. Are you running a psych ops ? You seemed to have access info others don't.

Further, how does this determine metallurgy and compound trace found ?
 

Spartan95

Junior Member
In 10th Nov last year, both north South Naval vessels exchanged fire in the area of the NLL, reportedly causing serious damage to a North Korean patrol ship and 5 Nk was killed. Where's the breach of the existing armistice then ?

Beats me what constitutes a breach of the armistice. But apparently even the UN is looking into this:

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The U.N. Command is investigating whether the sinking of a South Korean warship, allegedly by North Korea, violated the armistice between the two nations.

Anyway, RoK has decided to cut off all trade links to DPRK:

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President Lee Myung-Bak also banned the North's merchant ships from South Korean waters and said Seoul would refer the March 26 attack -- which killed 46 South Korean sailors -- to the United Nations Security Council for punishment.

In a nationally televised address, a sombre-looking Lee vowed an immediate military response to any future aggression.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
I am saying that NK, Russia and China should be included in the investigating team.

You could not include North Korea in the investigating team because they'd use it as a vehicle to destroy the investigation one way or another.

Do you have evidence that they wanted to be involved but were not invited? Maybe they didn't want to be involved because they feared they'd have to either back the report (facing North Korean ire) or kill it (facing everyone else's ire).
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South Korea has cut off trade with North Korea, banning Pyongyang's ships from it waters and demanding an apology from the regime of Kim Jong-il for the sinking of one of its warships last March.

Announcing retaliatory measures for the torpedoing of the Cheonan, South Korea's president Lee Myung-bak, also raised the temperature of the military stand-off on the Korean Peninsular, vowing "immediate" retaliation if the North committed any further provocations.

"From now on, (South) Korea will not tolerate any provocative act by the North and will maintain the principle of proactive deterrence," a sombre Mr Lee said in a nationally televised speech delivered from the country's war memorial. If our territorial waters, airspace or territory are violated, we will immediately exercise our right of self-defence." Mr Lee, who last week said the sinking was a breach of the 1953 armistice that ended the Korean War, confirmed that Seoul will refer the matter to United Nations.

North Korea has continued to deny responsibility for the attack, which killed 46 South Korean sailors, despite the wealth of evidence produced by a multi-national inquiry which recovered parts of the tail section of a North Korean-designed torpedo from the seabed where the Cheonan sank. Last week Pyongyang employed its characteristically bellicose rhetoric to threaten "all-out war" if the South sought to extract punitive sanctions for the sinking.

North Korea's near-bankrupt economy is already reeling from the impact of UN sanctions imposed last year after the illegal testing of a ballistic missile and a second nuclear device, with defectors reporting rising food shortages and growing discontent among the population. Analysts said that President Lee's response – which exempted the joint Kaesong industrial complex and aid for North Korean children – appeared to be carefully calibrated, avoiding direct mention of Kim himself.

However Mr Lee warned that the South was no longer prepared to turn the other cheek in the face of North Korean provocations, as it had in the past after a 1983 bombing in Myanmar aimed at Seoul's then-president and the downing of a South Korean airliner in 1987 which killed 115 people.

"But now things are different. North Korea will pay a price corresponding to its provocative acts," he said, adding "North Korea's goal is to instigate division and conflict. It is now time for the North Korean regime to change."

This seems to me to be a good response. Avoids military escalation but kicks the North Korean government where it hurts.

As usual I predict that North Korea will throw a temper-tantrum but take no further substantive action, despite its threats to the contrary. It's time that the world ignored the wailing North Korean baby pounding its fists on the floor and refuses to deal with it until it acts reasonably.

Orthan, I agree with you that now is the time for action. hina may not like it but it's time for it to choose - North Korea, or South Korea and by default the rest of the world. It's tried to have its cake and eat it over North Korea's behaviour for too long.
 

Red Moon

Junior Member
It is obvious that NK would try to argue its case if it participated in any investigation. But it is also obvious that the US or South Korea would also do this. Everybody has a stake in the outcome, and nobody in the world is above twisting facts in order to achieve their aims!

However, by leaving the DPRK, or anybody whose special agenda will not coincide with the American one on this (read China, perhaps Russia), the US and ROK control the story line. And the story line that is coming out seems to be extremely convenient for the US indeed!

As somebody pointed out above, this puts China in a dilemma over its approach to the DPRK and sanctions. But, in my view, more importantly, it adds a load of pressure on the matter of Iran, because now China is just protecting the "bad boys".

Of course, I was not part of the investigation, and therefore I cannot say whose torpedo it was. But I can say a few things:
1) I cannot trust an investigation conducted by only one side of the dispute, and away from the eyes and ears of any one who might not coincide with the agenda of the investigators.
2) Admitting to a friendly fire accident would be fatal to the interests of both the current ROK government as well as very damaging to US-ROK relations.
3) While accusing the DPRK of sinking the ship places the ROK govt under pressure to retaliate in some way, the long investigation has effectively provided a buffer, a period of calming, so that the "retaliation" can be conducted in a rational and controlled way. This solution, in fact, is ideal for the US, because the incident, regardless of its original cause and scope, can be put to use to further the global agenda pursued by the US, and not just simply American aims in connection with the DPRK and Northeast Asia.
 
I think it is important to remember that this incident happened in a disputed maritime border area. In the US at least, this fact was mentioned in many initial reports of the incident but has not been included in many of the follow-up reports.

When the context of the disputed maritime border area is taken into account, as well as the history of skirmishes in the area between the two Koreas, this incident is much less significant that it appears.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
Everybody has a stake in the outcome, and nobody in the world is above twisting facts in order to achieve their aims!

Don't equate every country in the world to North Korea. When was the last time Sweden committed a gross violation of UN law and then consistently lied about it? The North Koreans have so little credibility that I can't think of anyone I'd trust less.

The last thing the Republic of Korea wanted was for North Korea to torpedo their ship, and they wouldn't like to present it as such. The awful pressure placed on the South Korean government to retaliate can't be worth it. Nor would the US want a crisis like this to deal with.

Equally why are Australia and the UK going to help make things worse when there's no need to? Please don't give me some nonsense about puppets of the US, they're independent countries that would act objectively. Are we to believe that the report was an international conspiracy? No, just accept there's no reason to disbelieve other than "I don't like the result".

But, in my view, more importantly, it adds a load of pressure on the matter of Iran, because now China is just protecting the "bad boys".

Well it is. No one forces China to protect Iran from UN sanctions.

I cannot trust an investigation conducted by only one side of the dispute

See above. Australia, Sweden and the UK are not "one side of the dispute". They're not involved in the North/South Korea problem.

Admitting to a friendly fire accident would be fatal to the interests of both the current ROK government as well as very damaging to US-ROK relations.

Australia, Sweden and the UK would not take part in a conspiracy to preserve US-ROK relations, nor is there any evidence their investigators would give a damn even if their governments had pressured them to cover it up.

But I guess you made your mind up as soon as this happened and before the report came out. Any further evidence provided/support offered will just become part of the "conspiracy"...... :(
 

Mr T

Senior Member
I think it is important to remember that this incident happened in a disputed maritime border area. In the US at least, this fact was mentioned in many initial reports of the incident but has not been included in many of the follow-up reports.

When the context of the disputed maritime border area is taken into account, as well as the history of skirmishes in the area between the two Koreas, this incident is much less significant that it appears.

That's an awful excuse. It was an unprovoked, premeditated sneak attack. It couldn't be more significant.
 

xywdx

Junior Member
See above. Australia, Sweden and the UK are not "one side of the dispute". They're not involved in the North/South Korea problem.



Australia, Sweden and the UK would not take part in a conspiracy to preserve US-ROK relations, nor is there any evidence their investigators would give a damn even if their governments had pressured them to cover it up.

Those countries are not directly involved, which is all the more suspicious because they definitely have something to gain by supporting the US and nothing to lose.

It's not just the result though, the whole investigation is very suspicious from the beginning, isolating the sailors, restricting access to the ship and the supposed evidence. Then after a couple month all of a sudden you pull this torpedo wreckage out of nowhere and say you found it near the sinking and it's NK made.

Considering NK is denying the accusations it could be a rogue commander who acted independently(The Sum of All Fears anyone?), in which case we'll see if there are any real basis for Jack Ryan in the US government.
 
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