Given how the conflict is over and evolved into a war of words, this thread has been locked.
The Kashmir conflict 2025.
- Thread starter ohan_qwe
- Start date
Tentatively reopening thread since it looks like things are boiling up again.
These checkpoints and violence are a daily routine in occupied Kashmir for the past 40+ years, and probably unrelated to a Pak-Ind conflict.
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Ajit Doval is a proper nutcase. Terrorist can kill 26 people in the most militarized region of the earth, but a full professional military cannot break even a glass pane. This kind of cope rhetoric w̶i̶l̶l̶ should make ordinary Indians, especially university graduates, only question the mental faculty of Indian leadership. Very poor tactic.
India wanted to show USA and it's own citizens that it can do what Israel does in the middleast - bomb everyone with impunity - but it's execution turned into a major disaster. At this point, the damage control should entail something atleast a bit more plausible and not outright lies. But they've stuck with the narrative of mighty invincible success when the whole world including their own media is showing defeat. This can only backfire in Indian politics and jeopardize the Modi regime.
India wanted to show USA and it's own citizens that it can do what Israel does in the middleast - bomb everyone with impunity - but it's execution turned into a major disaster. At this point, the damage control should entail something atleast a bit more plausible and not outright lies. But they've stuck with the narrative of mighty invincible success when the whole world including their own media is showing defeat. This can only backfire in Indian politics and jeopardize the Modi regime.
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In the latest Guancha live program, Yankee revealed more information:
The "A shoot, B guide" tactic was not done through an AWACS data link. The J-10CE locked onto the Rafale using its own radar at a distance of over 200 km.
The decision to fire was reckless because the Rafale could have easily dodged the missile with any maneuver. However, it’s possible that the order was given based on the Pakistani Air Force's familiarity with the Indian Air Force.
"Even advanced target drones are better at dodging than the Rafale."
Pakistani ground-based fire control radar was jammed by their own electronic warfare aircraft, causing commanders to miss a good opportunity to launch surface-to-air missiles. This reflects the long-standing "aristocratic air force" culture of Pakistan.
The "A shoot, B guide" tactic was not done through an AWACS data link. The J-10CE locked onto the Rafale using its own radar at a distance of over 200 km.
The decision to fire was reckless because the Rafale could have easily dodged the missile with any maneuver. However, it’s possible that the order was given based on the Pakistani Air Force's familiarity with the Indian Air Force.
"Even advanced target drones are better at dodging than the Rafale."
Pakistani ground-based fire control radar was jammed by their own electronic warfare aircraft, causing commanders to miss a good opportunity to launch surface-to-air missiles. This reflects the long-standing "aristocratic air force" culture of Pakistan.
^ doesn't make much sense the way it's been translated.
Easily dodged with any maneuver and was irresponsible?? wut. presumably irresponsible because firing under those parameters is a waste of missiles since it would have been relatively easy to dodge. And yet, explained as PAF anticipating IAF not being able to dodge.
So I can only assume they're trying to say the PL-15 isn't some wonder killer at those ~200km ranges they hit the Rafales at. It was because IAF isn't great at BVR tactics and failed to perform the bare minimum. Given other competent AF, they would have been easily dodged (hence the irresponsible at shooting so far away).
Then we have to question how these guys got the intel to claim that IAF is bad at dodging rather than the missiles and kill chain performing very well. If they got sufficient alert, then Rafales would have been dodging and since it's oh so easy to dodge those missiles, then why didn't they get to unless they didn't receive sufficient alert which would mean the PL-15 and kill chain is quite capable of masking their shot. That contradicts the implied averageness of PL-15.
If the IAF was good at dodging and their Rafales were hit at such long ranges, then these guys should have just said PL-15s are quite effective.
Easily dodged with any maneuver and was irresponsible?? wut. presumably irresponsible because firing under those parameters is a waste of missiles since it would have been relatively easy to dodge. And yet, explained as PAF anticipating IAF not being able to dodge.
So I can only assume they're trying to say the PL-15 isn't some wonder killer at those ~200km ranges they hit the Rafales at. It was because IAF isn't great at BVR tactics and failed to perform the bare minimum. Given other competent AF, they would have been easily dodged (hence the irresponsible at shooting so far away).
Then we have to question how these guys got the intel to claim that IAF is bad at dodging rather than the missiles and kill chain performing very well. If they got sufficient alert, then Rafales would have been dodging and since it's oh so easy to dodge those missiles, then why didn't they get to unless they didn't receive sufficient alert which would mean the PL-15 and kill chain is quite capable of masking their shot. That contradicts the implied averageness of PL-15.
If the IAF was good at dodging and their Rafales were hit at such long ranges, then these guys should have just said PL-15s are quite effective.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
I think you have a Hollywood/DCS idea of how modern air combat works, where you get a reliable blizzard of alerts as soon as the enemy radar locks on you and engages you with a missile. That just doesn’t happen anymore in modern air combat with AR AAMs and AESA radars. You don’t need to ‘lock’ an enemy fighter to engage it because no one is using Semi active AAMs these days that requires for the target to be illuminated by radar in order to engage. With modern two way datalinks, you can shoot while in LPI scan mode as you only need to guide your AAM to the approximate area the target is in and the missiles own onboard active seeker can take over from there.
A modern 4th gen fighter is good, but it’s not magic. You cannot simply rely on its sensors and only take action when alarms start blaring in the cockpit, as usually it’s way too late at that point. Even in the era of the Cold War air combat that DCS is primarily modelled on, that’s way too little to late. If you haven’t already been defending like hell by the time that dreaded lock tone comes on from a Fox3 going pitbull, you might as well just pull the ejection lever as you are seconds away from death at that point baring a miracle.
The point is that the IAF should have assumed that they would be fired upon as soon as they launched their own weapons and responded accordingly immediately without needed to be told by their EW suite. The PAF kill chain was doubtless effective, but the point is that the kills were primarily the result of IAF incompetence.
Had the IAF fighters gone defensive as soon as they fired, those PL15s launched from 200km away would have all been wasted as the PL15 isn’t magic either and is limited by energy and distance like everything else.
Hi,
as we been reading about firing PL15 by the radar of their own jets, but what about
Indian awacs as been mentioned here by some learned members how come Indian
awaCs can’t detect firing of Pl15 from 200 Km one can understand Rafale might not
know about the moment missile is on its way but of cource J10 radar switch on and target
been locked and fired it means radar and fighter been illuminated on bigger screen of awacs
either awacs been downed before doing this kind of firing or picture is not cleared about firing
the PL15 by PAF by the way PAF is already operating with Link17 with awacs & the Chinese
fighters a while now
thank you
as we been reading about firing PL15 by the radar of their own jets, but what about
Indian awacs as been mentioned here by some learned members how come Indian
awaCs can’t detect firing of Pl15 from 200 Km one can understand Rafale might not
know about the moment missile is on its way but of cource J10 radar switch on and target
been locked and fired it means radar and fighter been illuminated on bigger screen of awacs
either awacs been downed before doing this kind of firing or picture is not cleared about firing
the PL15 by PAF by the way PAF is already operating with Link17 with awacs & the Chinese
fighters a while now
thank you
I think that missiles like PL15 are too small to be seen by AWACS on such distance...