The greatest military strategist in Chinese history?

Talking about Han dynasty, I surprised no one has mentioned Han2 Xin4 yet. He was the one who almost single-handedly turned things around for Liu Bang and defeated Chu. Some of his famous battles have been written into songs, like the entrapment from 10 directions (sorry about my bad translation).

And I'm pleased that no one has mentioned Zhuge Liang since he's more of a politician/administrator than military strategist in history although he was portrayed as a military strategist in the novel.

I think we need to make a distinction between tacticians and strategists. Tacticians win battles. To me, they would include Lin Biao, Liu bocheng, etc. But strategists decide when and where and whom to attack. They would be someone like Mao and the guy who advised the grandfather of the first Emperor of China on the strategy of "making friends with far away states and attack your neighboring states" (I forget his name but he's a slave and almost 80 years old when he became an advisor for Lord Qin). And it's this sinlge strategy that allowed Qin to defeat all the states and unified China. To me, this guy is one of the most brilliant strategists although he had never been to a battle and never commanded any troops. Could someone help me with his name?

vesicles said:

Yue, however, has always been known in the ancient China to be a strategist who commanded his troops and used brilliant tactics to win battles and very seldomly we hear stories about Yue engaging in personal combat with his enemy. In fact, many scholars actually think Yue was more like a scholar-general, which means he himself can't kill a fly but his use of military strategies allowed him to win battles.

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I have to take exception to the phrase that Yue Fei couldn't kill a fly. Yue's martial arts legacies still live on today. Maybe he wasn't the best warrior in his army (Yang Zaixin comes to mind), but he certainly wasn't a weak scholar either.

Also, most people tend to forget that Guan Yu, unlike Zhang Fei, was not only a good warrior, but also an excellent commander.

rhino123 said:

How about Emperor Kangxi? He is a great military strategist, by that I mean, he knew what to do at what time, although it was his generals that led the Qing army to victories in all campaign, but he is the one who dictate what to be done at what time, with limited resources, which area to focus on, etc.

And also the third Han emperor (Han WuDi), he is the one who defeated the Xiongnu and created a Han Empire that is among the strongest in his era.

Mao Zedong, no doubt is a great leader and an all round expert, but I believe what he had accomplish could also be accomplished by most of the emperors that were credited to the creation of new empires (Tang Taizhong, Qin Shi Huang, Liu Bang, Han Wudi, Kangxi (actually Kangxi is not the first emperor of Qing Dynasty), etc)

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buddy look at the adverse conditions Mao had to deal with. he was on the verge of being completely wiped out yet he manages to recover. many ppl say that it was the Japanese invasion that saved him, but look at the comparison of the forces in 1947: Chiang-4.8million professional army, significant portion of which were trained and equipped to German and American standard,have air force and navy, control of all major cities. Mao-1.2million peasant armies, half of which are guerilla forces,does not control any major cities,very poorly equipped.
the only other emperor comparable to that is Zhu Yuanzhang. Liu Bang was great but he's advantage is that he was able to max out the talents of his ministers and generals.

vesicles said:

I think we need to make a distinction between tacticians and strategists. Tacticians win battles. To me, they would include Lin Biao, Liu bocheng, etc. But strategists decide when and where and whom to attack. They would be someone like Mao and the guy who advised the grandfather of the first Emperor of China on the strategy of "making friends with far away states and attack your neighboring states" (I forget his name but he's a slave and almost 80 years old when he became an advisor for Lord Qin). And it's this sinlge strategy that allowed Qin to defeat all the states and unified China. To me, this guy is one of the most brilliant strategists although he had never been to a battle and never commanded any troops. Could someone help me with his name?

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the guy's name is Fan Ju. but there is a huge distinction between being in a leadership position and being in a advisory position as well.

solarz said:

I have to take exception to the phrase that Yue Fei couldn't kill a fly. Yue's martial arts legacies still live on today. Maybe he wasn't the best warrior in his army (Yang Zaixin comes to mind), but he certainly wasn't a weak scholar either.

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Yeah, I was exaggerating it a little there to convey the difference between Guan and Yue. Also I wasn't referring specifically to Yue when I said "he can't kill a fly" I was trying to define the term "scholar general".

Although I did mention that Yue won the Martial Championship in his younger year, it was a legend. Many scholars actually believe that Yue was not a fighting warrior based on some Song dynasty paintings. One of the paintings has all 4 famous generals at the time, including Yue, Han Shizhong, etc. and it portrayed Yue with a relatively "weak" physique. Also, no one can actually find documents talking about Yue's training in martial arts although plenty documents detailing his training in literature and military strategy. Many scholars believe people exaggerated him fighting ability in legend out of their admiration for the general (one of my favorite Chinese novels is "the legend of Yue Fei" with his serpent-turned spear and all). This happens very often in Chinese history.

solarz said:

Maybe he wasn't the best warrior in his army (Yang Zaixin comes to mind), but he certainly wasn't a weak scholar either.

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I would have to say Gao1 Chong3 would be the best warrior in Yue's army. ANd in the novel, Yue himself said it too. The guy single-handedly defeated Jin's 11 armored attack vehicles. He was only killed by the 12th one because his horse couldn't hold the weight.

solarz said:

Also, most people tend to forget that Guan Yu, unlike Zhang Fei, was not only a good warrior, but also an excellent commander.

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I think the novel tries to portray him as more sophisticated with scenes of him reading books and stuff. But in actuality, he was not very strategic at all. One good example: Wu's Sun Quan tried to ask Guan's daughter to marry his son. Strategically, this would be a good move since the entire plan by Zhuge Liang depended on their access in the east (he planned to attack CaoCao from both west and east) and Jingzhou (Guan wa station in Jingzhou) was the gateway to the east. Strengthening the alliance with Wu on the east would be a good move. But Guan said "how can my tiger daughter be together with an SOB (literally what he said)?" You tell me if this is something a brilliant strategist should say at probably the most critical time in his nation's ultimate plan to unify China.

vesicles said:

I would have to say Gao1 Chong3 would be the best warrior in Yue's army. ANd in the novel, Yue himself said it too. The guy single-handedly defeated Jin's 11 armored attack vehicles. He was only killed by the 12th one because his horse couldn't hold the weight.

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the name is Yang Zaixing, he isnt the best. if you are talkin about just individual combat, Lu Yunlong is the best though he only later surrendered to Yue Fei. but before he surrendered i think he fought every single general non-stop, while they are all taking breaks. in the end they still couldnt beat him. so Lu is the best, Yang is prolly a close second, though i really like Yang

vesicles said:

the guy who advised the grandfather of the first Emperor of China on the strategy of "making friends with far away states and attack your neighboring states" (I forget his name but he's a slave and almost 80 years old when he became an advisor for Lord Qin). And it's this sinlge strategy that allowed Qin to defeat all the states and unified China. name?

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WHY: What was the geopolitical situation at the time which prevented him from making friends with neighbouring states.?

Or is it at the time loyalty changes at the drop of a hat and your neighbours will stab you in the back when you arent looking? Sounds a bit like those Warlords in Afghanistan.

bladerunner said:

WHY: What was the geopolitical situation at the time which prevented him from making friends with neighbouring states.?

Or is it at the time loyalty changes at the drop of a hat and your neighbours will stab you in the back when you arent looking? Sounds a bit like those Warlords in Afghanistan.

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It was the end of the Warring State period with 7 states left. Everyone was trying to destroy others and unify China. With everyone almost equal in strength, it's impossible to simply attack. It's question of whom you want to form an alliance with. The old tradition was to attack a far away state and make friends with your neighbor for fear of disturbing your own border too much. The guy I was talking about advised the Lord of Qin that they should do the opposite since sending troop too far away stretched the supply too much. Plus, they had to bride their neighbors not to attack them while their army was fighting thousands of miles away. This depleted the resource too much and hindered the further development of the state. The Lord Qin took his advice and Qin slowly became the most powerful state. ALthough Qin did not unify China until decades later (80-100 years later based on my estimate), it's this single advice that gave Qin a chance to do it.

I'm just going by what the original poster stated:

solarz said:

Who do you think is the greatest military strategist in Chinese history? By "greatest", let's consider not only their performance in a single battle, but rather their influence on the entire campaign or war, as well as the odds against which they were faced.

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What do you think? Who would you consider to be China's greatest military strategist, and why?

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Lin Biao, Liu Bocheng, and Peng Dehuai all helped direct campaigns and battles, and they were all the underdogs. Tacticians merely dictate on-field battle maneuvers. I personally consider strategists as those who do that, as well as direct pre- and post-battle movements and help to influence where to attack next (thus, initiating new campaigns). I feel all three did that.

No doubt, Mao Zedong was a great military leader (probably the greatest in China), but I'm biased, because I absolutely detested - to the utmost degree - his economic policies, so I don't actually like him as a leader overall. I admit, I AM biased against him. That's why I chose to avoid him and chose his dogs of war instead.

And Subotai. I really like this guy.