Taiwan Military News Thread

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The two Kidd destroyers were officially commissioned today.

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Some other stuff on the arms procurement - the supplementary budget won't be reviewed again by the procedural committee until Tuesday (probably won't pass then), but the main budget has been moved to a plenary session (Monday) of the legislative yuan.

This makes me wonder, what would happen if the main budget were passed, but for some reason the supplementary budget was not completed before the end of the legislative session? Would the arms still be able to be bought anyway, seeing that there's less than US$ 200 million in the supplementary budget, and over US$1 billion set aside in the annual budget for the arms?
 
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Although the supplementary budget won't be reviewed tomorrow, the annual defence budget has been approved by the Legislative Defence Committee. Funding for the PAC-3 batteries was removed, along with purchase money for the SSKs (pending completion of the "review" stage of development).

R&D funds for the submarines was approved, along with money for the upgrade of the existing PAC-2 batteries to PAC-3 standard and the purchase of the 12 P-3C Orion planes.

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EDIT: I forgot to add that funding for the F-16 purchase (which was originally in the budget) was "frozen", not removed. The committee said that it would be released to the MND if it could provide evidence of US authorisation of the sale - i.e. the US has 5 months to decide whether or not the current arms purchase proposals are enough to allow the sales to go ahead.
 
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BLUEJACKET

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Although the supplementary budget won't be reviewed tomorrow, the annual defence budget has been approved by the Legislative Defence Committee. Funding for the PAC-3 batteries was removed, along with purchase money for the SSKs (pending completion of the "review" stage of development).

R&D funds for the submarines was approved, along with money for the upgrade of the existing PAC-2 batteries to PAC-3 standard and the purchase of the 12 P-3C Orion planes.

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I found this article interesting:
“Taiwan cannot allow its vital security interests to be held hostage to domestic partisan politics. We will be watching closely and judge those who act responsibly and those who play politics.” So said Stephen Young, the top U.S. official in Taiwan, last Thursday in an effort to intimidate lawmakers there into passing a “robust defense budget” in its current session and purchase billions of dollars of arms from the United States.
There is another word for “domestic partisan politics”: democracy. For an administration that has spent untold hours of official rhetoric singing the praises of freedom and democracy, this ham-handed effort by the Bush Administration’s “man in Taipei” to interfere in Taiwan’s internal politics is nothing short of stunning.
At issue is a multi-billion arms package from the United States to Taiwan that was approved by President George W. Bush in 2001, but has since been voted down over 60 times by the Taiwanese Parliament. It’s not at all clear that Taipei needs the package, which includes eight submarines, Patriot missiles and P-3 anti-submarine aircraft. Most experts on the region agree that China does not have the missiles, aircraft or naval mobility to mount a successful attack on Taiwan at this point. For example, Taipei’s Air Force, built upon French Mirage and U.S. F-16 fighters, is far superior to China’s, which relies primarily on knock-offs of prior-generation Soviet weaponry, combined with some newer Russian models.
Nor is China in the midst of a major buildup that would require Taiwan to keep up. According to the latest version of the International Institute for Strategic Studies’ Military Balance: “Since the early 1980s China’s defence sector has been in serious decline owing to the steady fall in procurement orders.” The book further points out that over that same time period, 70 percent of China’s military factories have been converted to civilian use.
There may come a time when China launches a major military buildup, but it has not happened yet. And it should be up to the Taiwanese people, speaking through their elected representatives, to decide how much the country needs to spend on defense, not to U.S. officials making veiled threats.
Perhaps the most ironic aspect of this episode is that U.S. leverage over Taipei is limited. Taiwan is not a recipient of U.S. military aid, and would thus need to pay for any arms deal out of its own funds. It has a vibrant economy, with active trade and investment interests throughout its region, including in China. It is extremely unlikely that Washington would cut off trade relations or withdraw its implicit security guarantee to Taipei over an effort to get it to buy more U.S. armaments. This is particularly true at a time when it is trying to get other nations to reduce their investments in nuclear weapons. While submarines and Patriot missiles lack the strategic clout and security dangers posed by nuclear weapons, any U.S. effort to force a democratic nation to buy more weapons than it wants would be viewed as an exercise in hypocrisy in most global capitals. It could also needlessly hamper U.S. initiatives to curb Iran and North Korea’s nuclear activities.
So which is it, pushing democracy or pushing arms? The Taiwanese case bears watching, as it may provide at least a partial answer to this question.
William D. Hartung is a senior fellow at the World Policy Institute at the New School.
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That's a good article, Blue - thanks for pointing it out.

The US is in a bit of a Catch 22 situation. Taiwan's defence spending has been slipping in both $ amounts and percentage of GDP for years, while China's has accelerated. Coupled with the delays in the Taiwanese legislative over arms purchases that both the KMT and DPP have agreed at various points are necessary, there's a strong element of frustration about the situation. It's no good to the US promising to help Taiwan if the PLA could deal a fatal blow to Taiwan before the USN/USAF could make a difference.

So it needs to do something to remind Taiwan not to just assume the US will always be able to protect it, no matter what. On the other hand it can't push too hard or it would make Taiwanese politicians lose face - the KMT said as much recently. And it has to be careful not to expect Taiwan to buy everything offered - there's no chance of going back to the early 90s where the KMT spent something like 5% of GDP on the military.

Though as I said the recent squabbles over the big three arms purchases was rather ridiculous.

Hopefully the fact that Taipei is aiming to fund the purchases through the annual budget, increasing it towards 3% of GDP (and that the KMT supports that) will create less stress for the US. But it will have to keep (diplomatically) reminding politicians like Ma from time-to-time that US support is dependent on Taiwan taking defence seriously and not using it as a political football.
 

BLUEJACKET

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With regards to submarines & other hardware for Taiwan, could Japan transfer some of her own/build them? I don't see any other country besides the US that could/would do it, but it could take longer since the USN no longer operates SSK types, and the yards hadn't build one in decades.
 
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With regards to submarines & other hardware for Taiwan, could Japan transfer some of her own/build them?

I'm not sure that Japanese law actually allows arms sales to foreign countries. Besides the Japanese wouldn't even if they could - they still value ties with China more than doing the Americans a favour.
 

BLUEJACKET

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I'm not sure that Japanese law actually allows arms sales to foreign countries. Besides the Japanese wouldn't even if they could - they still value ties with China more than doing the Americans a favour.
Agreed, but that may change, especially if Sino-Japanese realtions get worse- they aren't that good even now! The US could place an order for those subs in Japan, or buy some second hand boats from other allies and then resell them to Taiwan. As it is now, by the time they get them it may be too late!
 
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Well, anything could happen. But I doubt relations would get so bad that the Japanese would start kitting Taiwan out. Then again, who knows if something like a dispute about the EEZs resulted in military confrontation some day.....

But the SSKs don't matter that much to Taiwan. Although having 8 of them would be very nice, there are other things which it needs before - like the Orions. Though I must say, I am very curious as to what the Americans have been doing to further the project. Maybe there'll be some news next year with the extra funds for R&D that are being set aside from the defence budget.
 

BLUEJACKET

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I heard that the Navy & yards here are afraid that some in the the USN may like those SSK if they are build here, and will start ordering them instead of SSNs for less $$$. So, to avoid that risk they are just dragging their feet!
Diesel Navy
The nuclear submarine community within the U.S. Navy is continuing to try and fight off any effort by American shipyards to build diesel electric submarines for Taiwan, or for the U.S. Navy.
In response, John J. Young, assistant Navy secretary in charge of acquisition, recently fired off a memorandum mandating that a U.S.-built diesel submarine be included in all options presented to Taiwan's government. The United States has agreed to help Taiwan buy up to eight such submarines. Mr. Young stated that, "lt is highly desirable that Taiwan submarine program options include approaches which provide for both hull and combat system construction in the United States. I endorse fully such an approach, and I very much hope that U.S. yards build part or all of some or all of any submarines that Taiwan buys."
Mr. Young also said the Navy should not view foreign construction of submarine hulls for the Taiwanese as "preferable."
"Navy officials should not actively encourage plans to build solely outside the U.S.," he said. "The program policy is that there is merit to completing some portion of the construction in U.S. yards, especially in recognition of the U.S. effort to support the design, development and procurement."
The memo was partly directed at Adm. Frank L. "Skip" Bowman, director of the naval nuclear-propulsion program and the guardian of the all-nuclear submarine force established by the late Adm. Hyman G. Rickover.
Nuclear submariners want the diesel boats made overseas, for Taiwan only.
The anti-diesel officers fear building diesel submarines, which are about one-fourth as expensive as nuclear-powered boats, could jeopardize their plans to keep the U.S. submarine force all-nuclear. Pentagon officials may become enamored of cheaper diesel ships and order the Navy to start buying them.
Other Navy officials want to end the monopoly on nuclear submarines and move toward a mix of diesel and nuclear submarines.
Two Republican senators agree with Mr. Young. Sens. Trent Lott and Thad Cochran, both from Mississippi, wrote to Rear Adm. J. Phillip Davis, the Navy's submarine program officer, urging the Taiwan diesel boats to be built in the United States.
"Fabrication of these submarines within the United States is consistent with Navy policy and would enhance the stability of our shipbuilding industry," the senators wrote Oct. 4.
Mississippi is home to Northrop Grumman's Ingalls shipyard, which would be likely to build any U.S. diesel electric submarines for the Taiwanese. The submarines are needed to bolster "Taiwan's security and defense of its sea lanes of communications," they stated.
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Taiwan has also been offered Indian and Russian vessels. In late 2004, the suggestion that the United States might build the submarines for Taiwan itself, voiced three years earlier in discussions over whether the U.S. Congress would support the Bush Administration's decision to assist in the sale, was repeated. The refurbishment of the Ingalls Shipyard in Pascagoula, Mississippi, is one of the most likely options for US-based production.[6] Taiwan has also been exploring the possibility of building submarines itself. A cross-ministry task force found that Taiwan's China Shipbuilding Corporation could build submarines without additional large-scale investment if provided with blueprints and submarine weapons systems. However, Taiwanese Vice Minister of National Defense Huo Shou-yeh said that the United States had indicated it would not help Taiwan build the boats in Kaohsiung.[7]
As of March 2005, Taiwanese officials were reporting that U.S. officials had assured them that the U.S. policy of assisting Taiwan in submarine procurement had not changed. However, Taiwan will have to pay for the procurement, and the opposition Kuomintang Party has blocked passage of the relevant legislation in the Taiwanese legislature (balking at the $7-11 billion cost of the vessels).[8] In 2005, the Ministry of National Defense has been lobbying hard for the legislature to pass a special budget of $18.23 billion for arms procurement. The eight submarines top the list in the procurement package.
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The PLA's 2002 order for eight more upgraded Kilo 636M SSKs sought to match the U.S. 2001 commitment to sell Taiwan eight SSKs. The PLA will have its new submarines by 2006, whereas, because of politics in Taipei, it remains undecided whether or when Taiwan will receive theirs. In addition, barring a significant increase in defense spending, Japan is expected to sustain its fleet of 15 to 16 SSKs. Though modern, and manned by highly professional crews, Japan's submarine fleet would be overwhelmed by the PLAN's sub fleet in the event of a Sino-Japanese war, such as a conflict over resource claims in the East China Sea.
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I heard that the Navy & yards here are afraid that some in the the USN may like those SSK if they are build here, and will start ordering them instead of SSNs for less $$$. So, to avoid that risk they are just dragging their feet!

Yes, that's been suggested for some time. I don't know how much truth there is in it/how much it is affecting the project. I think the main problem so far has been a lack of commitment from Taiwan over the project and the fact the US couldn't build them.

But if the USN was really that worried, I think it needs to calm down - I don't think Congress would make it go back to conventionally-powered submarines.
 
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