Syria Shoots Down Turkish Fighter Jet

asif iqbal said:

Turkey does not need any "internal support" as you put it, as Turkey has a million man standing army

And Turkey and China have big trade and are not in any sort of direct confrontation, Turkey has also bought Chinese multiple rocket launching systems and ballistic short range missiles

Turkey has a very long and rich history, Ottoman Empire reached from Caspian Sea, to all the land around the Black Sea and far West to Balkans and North to Vienna, as such they have influence in all these regions and important player in these territorys

also Turkey and Pakistan are close allies, and so is Pakistan and China, as a result we see close co-operation between the 3 countrys, Pakistan will do anything it can to balance out any differences between China and Turkey

politics is politics its a dirty business

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Sorry, but your reply is based on misunderstanding internal for international.
Internal support means the Turks in Turkey must together support something. Every nation works like this independent of military force size.
It's international support that would be required if their army was not strong enough. International support or NATO support is external support and this also includes citizens of other nations supporting Turkey.

Why did Turkey fail where Israel succeeds despite the high standard of Turkish forces?

Can't believe they have the gut to do that. Probably an accident in nature. If Syria deliberately initiated this shoot-down, especially publicly challenging Turkey, they would be screwed, like Palestine to Israel. The Turkish forces completely overpowers them. Their children would have to throw rocks at the Turkish Leopard II's.

Vini_Vidi_Vici said:

Can't believe they have the gut to do that. Probably an accident in nature. If Syria deliberately initiated this shoot-down, especially publicly challenging Turkey, they would be screwed, like Palestine to Israel. The Turkish forces completely overpowers them. Their children would have to throw rocks at the Turkish Leopard II's.

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Self-defense? The Syrian military is quite good and fights for Alawi survival.

Kurt said:

Self-defense? The Syrian military is quite good and fights for Alawi survival.

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Please first do analysis for before making conclusions, Syrian military good? exactly what at? killing their own people

and where did Turkey fail where Israel suceeded?

downing a aircraft without issuing a warning in no way possible does that constitute success

These are the minutes of the NATO council meeting.

Turkey: We were attacked ! Attacked i tell you.

NATO: Attacked ? Who ? When ? How ?

Turkey: On friday morning the Syrians shot down one of our jets using AAA.

NATO: Did you say the Syrians used AAA ?

Turkey: Yes.

NATO: Where we're you're jets when they got shot ?

Turkey: Uhhh... over Syrian airspace.

NATO: What we're you're planes doing in Syrian airspace ?

Turkey: Uhhh...

NATO: Riiiight !

A little joking around is ok but now the situation between Syria and Turkey is getting serious...

Are these idle words or a real threat?

Turkey branded its former ally Syria "a clear and imminent threat," on Tuesday as its Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan vented his fury over the downing of a Turkish fighter jet.
In his most outspoken criticism of the Damascus regime, Erdogan vowed to retaliate against the "heinous act" and promised a change of military attitude to any Syrian officer approaching the common border.
"The rules of engagement of the Turkish Armed Forces have changed given this new development," Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan told parliament following the shooting down of F-4 Phantom jet Friday. The two pilots are still missing.
Any risk posed by Syria on the Turkish border will be "considered a threat and treated as a military target," he said in a jam-packed room of lawmakers who frequently interrupted the address with applause.
Erdogan said his government would retaliate "with determination" and take what he called the "necessary steps by determining the time, place and method by itself".
The prime minister said Turkey's military jet violated the Syrian airspace for a short time and "by mistake" and repeated that it was unarmed, flying solo when it was shot down by Syria "without a single warning."
"We did not receive a single warning, note from Syria (regarding airspace violation)...They acted without warning. This is a hostile act," Erdogan said.
Erdogan said that Turkish airspace had been violated 114 times by military aircraft from different countries, including Syria, since January 1, 2012.
"Syrian helicopters violated our airspace five times. These were short-term violations," to which Turkey issued the necessary warnings, Erdogan noted.
"This latest development shows that the Assad regime has become a clear and imminent threat to the security of Turkey, as well as for its own people," he added.
Erdogan broke with former friend and ally Assad, whom he called "a bloody dictator," after unrest that erupted mid-March last year met a bloody response from Damascus, sending more than 33,000 refugees into Turkey.
"Turkey will support Syrian people in every way until they get rid of the bloody dictator and his gang," he said on Tuesday.

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violating other countrys airspace is a common occurance, it happens all the time but countrys deal with it in mature manner, even Russian bombers have violated Scotland and Typhoons have been scrambeled

this does not mean you shoot the aircraft down without warning, I really hope Turkey does something about this and now start taking direct action against Syiran aggression, i mean what if that was a civilian airliner with 100s of women and children onboard?? its not like Syria would care

i really wish Turkey had T-129 attack helos in service, they would provide much needed close air support at a time when they need it

and i find it really funny when countrys and Qatar and Saudi Arabia talking about bringing democracy to Syria, they should stay out this, everyone knows what their agenda is


Turkey needs to take charge of the situtation

PS: I also have a feeling the 96K9 Pantsyr-S1 mobile airdefence system was responsible for downing the F4, Syria has between 36-50 of them the last ones were delivered last year, its close range and fast, maybe why Turkish pilot wasnt able to break lock or out turn the incoming missile

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Turkish airspace violated 114 times in 2012 (google translate)

In the last three months, Greece, Italy, France, Spain and the Israeli aircraft, violated Turkish airspace 15 times. Airplanes warned and forced to leave.

June 20, 2012: an undetermined type of aircraft belonging to Italy, Datca Peninsula, southwest air violated the field of business encompasses a period of two minutes.

June 18, 2012: One EMB-135 aircraft belonging to Greece, Dilek Peninsula / west of Aydin, a total of 20 seconds for the air field of business encompasses violated.

June 6, 2012: A helicopter belonging to Greece, Karaburun Peninsula / 1 each minute field of business encompasses the west of Izmir and 2 times violated the air.

May 31, 2012: Two F-16 aircraft belonging to Greece, Kas / Antalya, southwest of the air field of business encompasses a total of two times with 1 minute 35 seconds violated.

May 30, 2012: Greece, one of the Super Puma helicopter, west of Kalkan, the air field of business encompasses violated for 2 minutes.

May 23, 2012: Italy in one of the air vehicle, Datca Peninsula / Mugla southwest violated the air field of business encompasses a period of one minute

May 21, 2012: A helicopter belonging to Greece, Karaburun Peninsula / air field of business encompasses five minutes west of Izmir, one of the aircraft in the Karpas cape east of Italy, the TRNC has violated its airspace for four minutes.

May 18, 2012: one C-130 aircraft belonging to Greece, south of Bozburun, a plane belonging to Italy, the Datca Peninsula, southwest air violated the field of business encompasses 2 minutes.

May 14, 2012: A plane belonging to Israel, between the hours of 11:05 to 12:49, and a total of 5 times for 8 minutes TRNC airspace violated. Aircratfs stationed at Incirlik 2XF-16, Genuine Alarm (Scramble) and advanced aircraft, patrol flight airspace by Israeli aircraft TRNC TRNC airspace allowed to leave.

May 3, 2012: a French unit of air tool, the Datca Peninsula, southwest air violated the field of business encompasses a period of four minutes.

May 2, 2012: C-130 aircraft belonging to Greece, Datca Peninsula, southwest air violated the field of business encompasses a period of two minutes.

May 1, 2012: Italy and belonging to an unspecified type of aircraft, violated the Datca Peninsula, southwest air field of business encompasses a minute.

April 26, 2012: a French and an unspecified type of aircraft, violated the Datca Peninsula, southwest air field of business encompasses two minutes.

April 16, 2012: A plane belonging to Spain, Datca Peninsula, southwest air violated the field of business encompasses a period of two minutes.

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Syrian forces opened fire on second Turkish plane: deputy PM

I actually believe that intervention BY ANY NATO COUNTRY right now would be a very risky move. In fact, I believe it would even destabilize the region stability. The huge problem we have with the Middle East it's the huge complexity of the region.

1) What does the Alawi, Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah have in common ? They're all Shias. With Iran's view of pan-Islamism, Syria has become her main ally in the Arab World for religious reason. Hamas and Hezbollah also received founding from Iran, and their have important facilities in Damascus. Intervention in Syria could result in retaliation on Israel because they're considered Allies of the West.

2) Syria is also one of the most important piece in the regional stability. The Kurds are an ethnic groups that are looking to acquire rights and independence (and maybe even their own country). Right now, they're under the domination by the Syrian government. But imagine if Al-Assad fall, and the Kurds (accounting for 10% of the population in Syria) are able to gain something or even secession, what message does this send to the Kurds in the neighbor countries such as Turkey, Irak (15-25% of the population) or Iran (10% of the population) ? It might start civil unrest or even a civil war (like in Irak). Damascus also does have some influence on the Shia community.

3) Western countries are reluctant to intervene for a 3rd time in less than a decade in another Arab country. It would actually send a very image of the West to the Arab World.

Diplomacy right now is still the best possible option, because it doesn't carry the risk of instability growing over borders. I agree that the currenty situation is pretty bad in Syria, but we really need to be careful, because the whole Middle East is a powder keg that can ignite easily by a false move.


PS: Some of you might want some sources of what I'm saying, this information are the sum of my own conclusion of my study of the security issue in the Middle East and information gave to me by some DFAIT (Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada) personnel that I know, including a former Canadian ambassador at UN and someone that was assigned in the past at the Canadian embassy in Syria.

bd popeye said:

A little joking around is ok but now the situation between Syria and Turkey is getting serious...

Are these idle words or a real threat?

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Great source, this thing gets serious.
"Turkey will support Syrian people in every way until they get rid of the bloody dictator and his gang."

Assad's gang are the Alawis.

Syria is ruled by a Shia Alawi-minority who have a monopoly on real military and security forces power. There have been insurgencies against the Alawi minority domination in the past, but they all failed because the tiny group of Alawis has outstanding military training and organization as well as good arms. Sorry to offend some people, but they are a kind of "Israel" in military terms (numbers, organization, training, occupation) and the real Israel had some tough ground combat against them, such as the famous , a nightmare for Israel that was highlighted in detail in a German military journal while I served.
Their handicap against Israel was the better Israeli air force that they countered with upgraded air defences. The Syrian air force is still a Middle Eastern force to be reckoned with.


Ever since the protest started, a sign of support from a group of Alawis sympathetic to the protester's goals has been awaited. None came forward as far as I know. The ethnic divide is maintained.
While the Alawis have the power, the Christian minority feels not secure about change to majority rule because they fear more insecurity from such a step as the Christians of Iraq have been leaving ever since the imposed regime change and neither feel Coptish Christians in Egypt safe and being a Christian in Turkey is a whole lot of trouble.
The numbers on the fraction of the Alawi component of the Syrian population don't agree, but something in between 10-20%.
The CIA factbook article on Syria says 16% are Druze and Alawi. 10% are Christians and 74% are Sunni Muslims.
The Druze in Israel for example are one of the groups that does serve in the Israeli military as an allied population, unlike the Israeli Arabs. I'm not sure on the position of the Druze in Syria, but they might, like the Christians, want their minority protection.
Roughly speaking there's a 15% population group - called the "gang" composed of Alawis lead for generations by the highly succesful Assad clan with secure support from 11% of the population due to religious affiliation.

They face insurgents who are recruited from among 74% of the population, consisting of Sunnis. It isn't clear who of this group is for or against the Assad clan. Strong Turkish involvement makes it likely that they try to form ties to the Turkish Syrians.
The Syrian Turks have a strong mix with the Arabs. As I mentioned above, a large number of Arab speaking inhabitants is claimed to be of Turkish descent (might be rather fictional). The overall group of Turkish(Circassian) speaking Turks and Arab speaking "Turks" would equal the numbers of the Alawi.
Unlike previous uprisings that were more like the Palestinian Intifadas, mighty Turkey seems intent on helping the insurgents to wage a longterm civil war. The Alawi have an advantage from existing ethnic separation settlement patterns that allow classification of regions and thus selective theaters of operation.

Because Syria is Shia, the Hezbollah as well as Iran are likely to support their co-religionists. It's possible that Iraq will join them open or covert. Russia has an important strategic maritime presence in Syria that balances the insecurity of the harbour leases on the Krim and the current gouvernment is a major Russian arms customer.
Turkey is really kindling the flames.
It could again end up like Lybia, helping al-Qaeda trained militants, not the whole Lybian insurgent force, but part of them, to conquer under NATO close air support. Chechen militants will very likely be involved because they are crack insurgent troops with very good ties to their Turkish brethren, another reason Russia will stay at an adamant "njet".

Rowing_Ming said:

3) Western countries are reluctant to intervene for a 3rd time in less than a decade in another Arab country. It would actually send a very image of the West to the Arab World.

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so what is going to happen if they intervene? whats any Arab country going to do about it? what have they ever done about it, and the fact that the Arab league itself is asking for Assad to go makes it even more of a possibility

who supports Assad in the Arab world? fact here is this, Syrian goverment is killing itse citizens, no matter what anyone says its the job of the international community to save the lives of innocent people being slaughter, i dont care about the politics

US went to Iraq millions died what did Arab world do there? Iran and Iraq fight for 8 years what did Arab world do there? spending billions on weapons and yet unable to resolve a single issue, they have no say in the matter

Shias, Sunnis, Christians, Jews and Kurds have all lived side by side for centurys they have done it before and will do it again, ive visited Syria, ive seen a mosque, chruch and synagogue in the same street, they have no problems only leaders make the problems

if diplomacy worked then Russia asked Assad to meet the Annan proposal, Assad refused, if Russia cant use diplomacy then no one else can not even Iran, these people only know one thing, that is force, they are mentality unstable, even after they caught Gaddafi he was shouting and saying hes the ruler of Libya, these leaders are not normal they believe they can racially superiror to everyone else