Star Wars & Sc-Fi Talk

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
A few years back there was a big budget Alien movie prequel that more or less flopped on reception. Yes I am talking about Prometheus
Now in the movie, the Engineers a Race of humanoids seeds planets with there genetic material. then they came along and decided to create a second round of alterations to earth and the like taking the form of the Xenomorphs, and farther more if you look at the Xenomorphs they in there adult from take at least part of there genetic material from there incubating host host IE Humans/Predators/Dogs.
So here is the Question for you does this mean, that in James Cameron's Universe Xenomorphs have a Soul?
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
A few years back there was a big budget Alien movie prequel that more or less flopped on reception. Yes I am talking about Prometheus
I really liked Prometheus...a lot.

It cost $130 million to make and it did $126.4 million in the US and $277 million internationally. That's a total of $403.5 million world-wide.

Apparently it was enough profit to go to a sequel. The 2nd Prometheus will have Dr. Elizabeth Shaw taking David and going to find the engineers.

Director Ridley Scott has said that a sequel will follow Shaw to her next destination.
He is quoted as saying, "Because if it is paradise, paradise cannot be what you think it is. Paradise has a connotation of being extremely sinister and ominous."

Fox began pursuing a sequel with Scott in late 2012. The writer, Damon Lindelof decided not to work on the sequel, and in late June 2013, Jack Paglen was hired to write the sequel which he completed in October 2013. But then, in March 2014, Michael Green was hgired to do a re-write of Paglen's script.

There is now an official site for Prometheus 2 (Paradise) up now at:

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It has a current release date of March 4, 2016.. I will definitely be going to see it.

Prometheus II Trailer

Nooni Rapace (Shaw) discusses Prometheus II​
 
It's interesting that you entertain the possibility with a robot, but reject it with a clone. Even if a clone has minor genetic differences, would it not be a lot easier and faithful to re-imprint a neural pattern on a clone than on a robot?

I guess the clone setup might have distracted from the real issue, which is, can a stream of consciousness carry on in a different physical body, provided that the underlying physical structure of the consciousness (in this case, the brain and its neural pattern at a specific moment) is faithfully copied?

If we turned the concept around, and assume that there exists a self-aware AI with a similar stream of consciousness as real human beings, I think it's pretty easy to accept that you can just copy the AI onto another computer and have it exist again. However, would it still be the same AI?

Another note on twins vs clones. In my particular scenario, I feel that clones differ from twins in a fundamental way.

Although twins are born genetically identical, they are not necessarily born self-aware. Psychologically, we still don't understand how infants learn self-awareness, but it does seem to be acquired after birth. So twins would be two separate streams of consciousness because their consciousness developed separately. On the other hand, in the clone scenario, I was talking about somehow imprinting this consciousness instead of allowing the clone to develop its own.

Of course, this could very well be impossible. How do you modify a brain's neural patterns? It might be feasible if it's just a pattern of neural signals, then you could stimulate individual neurons into firing at a specific rate until you get the desired result. However, what if it requires a rearrangement of cells? Then that becomes an impossible task.

But then if we come back to the whole "downloading your memory into a robot", if we assume that it can be done almost flawlessly, does your stream of consciousness then get carried over? Sure a computer is different from an organic brain, but people who suffer brain damage are essentially working with a "different" hardware as well, and it would be hard to argue in those cases that their previous stream of consciousness was terminated.

What do you guys think?

If the stream of consciousness can be faithfully copied and its past is not affected by the copying then yes it is a continuation of that stream of consciousness. However if multiple copies are made, the moment they are made their experience starts to become different from the other copies and therefore should be regarded as different streams of consciousness with a shared past. It is also true that none of the copies are the original whole as the original whole would be a combination of the stream of consciousness and its original "body". It can be visualized same as a family tree or evolutionary taxonomy.
 

solarz

Brigadier
If the stream of consciousness can be faithfully copied and its past is not affected by the copying then yes it is a continuation of that stream of consciousness. However if multiple copies are made, the moment they are made their experience starts to become different from the other copies and therefore should be regarded as different streams of consciousness with a shared past. It is also true that none of the copies are the original whole as the original whole would be a combination of the stream of consciousness and its original "body". It can be visualized same as a family tree or evolutionary taxonomy.

Ah, but what I'm getting at is, would "you" still be "you"? That is, if it happened to you, would it be like you just closed your eyes and woke up somewhere else, or would you effectively have died, and someone else is continuing your life?
 

vesicles

Colonel
It's interesting that you entertain the possibility with a robot, but reject it with a clone. Even if a clone has minor genetic differences, would it not be a lot easier and faithful to re-imprint a neural pattern on a clone than on a robot?

Well, I brought up robots in an attempt to differentiate between a biological entity and a mechanical one. While a biological living being must be considered as individuals, mechanical beings cannot be considered as living. That was my thinking.

I


Another note on twins vs clones. In my particular scenario, I feel that clones differ from twins in a fundamental way.

Although twins are born genetically identical, they are not necessarily born self-aware. Psychologically, we still don't understand how infants learn self-awareness, but it does seem to be acquired after birth. So twins would be two separate streams of consciousness because their consciousness developed separately. On the other hand, in the clone scenario, I was talking about somehow imprinting this consciousness instead of allowing the clone to develop its own.

You cannot separate the self-consciousness and a living body. Your scenario describes a process to force a new self-consciousness onto a perfectly living human being (the clone) with normal human intelligence. The whole premise is based on the assumption that, once born, clones are simply sheets of blank paper, waiting to be "imprinted". Do you see the problem in this? The self-awareness and consciousness come from the ability to think and the ability to analyze. This means that, as long as you have average human intelligence, you will have the ability to obtain self-awareness and consciousness. Thus, the human clones WILL develop their own self-awareness as soon as they are born because they have the same ability to think and to analyze as natural-born human. In this sense, clones and twins are the same. And biologically speaking and on the cellular and molecular levels, developing clones and having twins are exactly the same process. What we do in the lab is simply increasing the probability of having a set of homozygotic twin to almost 100% while the chance of having a set of homozygotic twins naturally is slim.

This is also why I brought up robots. Robots are only beings that can exist as a blank sheet of paper before "imprinting". Any biological being would obtain self-awareness on its own, provided that their intelligence level is high enough to do that. Then these clones WILL automatically develop their own identity, completely independent of their originals. Then you will have to wipe out their consciousness and "imprint" the consciousness of the originals onto these clones. You see the problem?

PLEASE NOTE, we now can develop human babies partially in the lab. Ever heard of in vitro fertilization (test tube babies)? The actual medical procedure to develop a test tube baby is shockingly similar to cloning. Many couples who cannot get pregnant naturally use medical procedures to have babies. Many of these procedures, such as in vitro fertilization, utilize in vitro techniques (procedures done outside of human body using equipment in labs) to develop embryos. And we have sperm / egg banks for that. Cloning involves pretty much the exact same procedures as in vitro fertilization, plus some minor differences (of course, the devil is in the details. It is those few minor differences that make human cloning impossible as of now). However, let me emphasize again that the whole experimental strategy behind human cloning is almost exactly the same as in vitro fertilization. We now treat people born from these procedures exactly as other natural born humans. Since human clones will be developed using extremely similar procedure, I don't see how we should treat human clones any different. If we cannot simply take a person on the street and wipe his mind and put a new one in, we still cannot do it to the human clones in the future.

Of course, this could very well be impossible. How do you modify a brain's neural patterns? It might be feasible if it's just a pattern of neural signals, then you could stimulate individual neurons into firing at a specific rate until you get the desired result. However, what if it requires a rearrangement of cells? Then that becomes an impossible task.

But then if we come back to the whole "downloading your memory into a robot", if we assume that it can be done almost flawlessly, does your stream of consciousness then get carried over? Sure a computer is different from an organic brain, but people who suffer brain damage are essentially working with a "different" hardware as well, and it would be hard to argue in those cases that their previous stream of consciousness was terminated.

What do you guys think?

It is still a huge mystery as to how memory is developed in a human brain. It involves a mysterious switch from electrical signal to cell signaling cascades that modify cell behavior. Keep in mind that it is the cell signaling events that eventually determine long-term potentiation and memory development. That switch is still a black box. No one knows exactly how brain cells convert plasma membrane depolarizaton and action potentials to
modify cell behavior. So can we actually change the neuronal pattern and modify brain cells to change memory? No one knows. It may never be done.

All in all, human clones, if it can ever be done, will be and shall be treated as separate individuals. If we cannot simply take a person off the street and wipe his mind and put a new one in, we still cannot do it to the clones.
 

solarz

Brigadier
All in all, human clones, if it can ever be done, will be and shall be treated as separate individuals. If we cannot simply take a person off the street and wipe his mind and put a new one in, we still cannot do it to the clones.

I think this is crux of your position. You are basically arguing that self-consciousness cannot be divorced from the physical body it exists in, due to a host of factors that intricately ties our so-called "consciousness" with the underlying physical and biological processes that gave rise to this consciousness.

Therefore, consciousness cannot be "transposed". Effectively, it *is* the physical vessel in which it resides.

I am not inclined to disagree with this view, as it solves a lot of paradoxes. If consciousness cannot be transposed, then it also cannot be replicated.
 

vesicles

Colonel
If the goal is to extend life, then a better way would be to grow organs, NOT an entire human being. We are actually on our way to achieve that although we still have a long way to go.

We now can use adult stem cells and grow them into functional organs in dishes. Note that I am talking about ADULT stem cells, NOT embryonic stem cells. While the embryonic stem cell technology is still highly controversial, ADULT stem cell tech has absolutely no controversy at all since these cells come from adults like you and me. Just like donating blood, we get to decide if we want to give up some of our own stem cells. Since our tissues are packed with stem cells, all the doctors need to do is to do a simple biopsy and get some tissue. And adult stem cells can be isolated from the tissue. Take my research as an example, I am investigating colon cancer. To develop a good model system, I collaborate with physicians who perform biopsy on adult volunteers and extract small amount of intestinal tissues from them. Then we isolate the adult stem cells from these tissues and grow them in 3-D Matri gels. Upon proper stimulation, these stem cells will differentiate into different types of cells typically found in a human intestine and form into an intestine-like structure, called organoids. Initial tests show that these organoids have all the correct structural components of a functional human intestine. Because the size is still small (less than a milliliter), we actually call them "mini-guts". My own goal is to use these mini-guts as model systems to test my hypotheses of what the main cause of colon cancer can be. However, the main goal in the field of organoids is to eventually grow large size organs in dishes. So if anyone needs an organ transplant, all we need to do is to biopsy some of his tissue from the organ that needs to be taken out. then we isolate the adult stem cells and grow these cells into an intact organ. Then we put the grown organ back into the patient. This way, no need to wait for a matching organ and no need to worry about immune-rejection since the new organ comes from your own cells.

When you grow old, you can switch out all your organs and live longer and longer...

BTW, I think people have successfully grown an adult-sized bladder from these adult stem cells...
 
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Ah, but what I'm getting at is, would "you" still be "you"? That is, if it happened to you, would it be like you just closed your eyes and woke up somewhere else, or would you effectively have died, and someone else is continuing your life?

Sure that's still "you", but now there can be multiple "you"s.
 
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