Sino-India conflict

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Jagan

Just Hatched
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Indianfighter said:
Jagan, arent you one of the admins at BR ? If yes, then nice to meet you.

Can you specifically tell about the troop deployments of China vis-a-vis India ? I posted a very detailed research paper by a US Navy personnel (1984), and it says that Indian troops were heavily outnumbered by Chinese troops at many fronts of the war.

If you have any information on that, it would be very helpful if you post it.

Thank you.

P.S The research paper is a few posts before this one.

Hi indianfighter, yep i am from BR (The IAF Site webmaster). My knowledge of the indian orbats is solely based on the Indian book son the topic. I claim no knowledge on the chinese orbats.

going by what i have read, for the intial battle, the brigade on thagla was certainly outnumbered . I recommend the book "Himalayan Blunder" by Brig JP Dalvi, who was the brig commander and a POW of the Chinese later on. its one of the best books on the china war ever written. Dalvi writes in detail of his brigades deployement - they were too strung out along a long frontline to be effective.. and they were understrength and under supplied.

While Indian army was certainly outnumbered on the initial battle, there were some ocassions - say the Brigade based at Se La. They could have held on if they had stuck ground. They had to withdraw due to an order from the divisional commander (who was panicky) and were caught up in the chinese attack. It is generally considered that they could have held out but for that decision.

i am pretty sure that most of our formations in the Aksai Chin sector were outnumbered as well, but then the reverses in tha sector were not really as haphazard as they were in NEFA

I havent read the paper that you have posted yet.. will do so shortly.
 

Indianfighter

Junior Member
Thank you for replying Mr. Jagan. The information given by you was good, and is a step forward in the confirmation of the fact that Indian troops were outnumbered in quite many--if not all--of the fronts of that war. I shall try to get the book by Brig. Dalvi.

The research paper on the 1962 war by Lt.Com James Calvin (US Navy), is here :
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FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Indianfighter said:
Thank you for replying Mr. Jagan. The information given by you was good, and is a step forward in the confirmation of the fact that Indian troops were outnumbered in quite many--if not all--of the fronts of that war. I shall try to get the book by Brig. Dalvi.

The research paper on the 1962 war by Lt.Com James Calvin (US Navy), is here :
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Hi

Welcome to Mr Jagan. No offense Jagan but I would call you probably the
most biased person after reading some of the stuff on your site so forgive
me if I take your claims with a pinch of salt.

Similarly Lt. Com James Calvin wrote his paper as he himself admits with very little access to chinese archives however we have now been blessed with a great deal of information in the years since.

I'll use the indian website Rediff.com as a source if I may because you are obviously familiar with it's exposure of a number of Indian political and military scandals. Mr Neville Maxwell was able to get access to secret Indian documents which were NEVER revealed to Lt Com Calvin


1. India was responsible for the war which it caused by provoking India
under the impression that Chinese forces were weaker.

Indians will be shocked to discover that, when China crushed India in 1962, the fault lay at India, or more specifically, at Jawaharlal Nehru and his clique's doorsteps. It was a hopelessly ill-prepared Indian Army that provoked China on orders emanating from Delhi, and paid the price for its misadventure in men, money and national humiliation.

and also

When the Army's report into its debacle in the border war was completed in 1963, the Indian government had good reason to keep it Top Secret and give only the vaguest, and largely misleading, indications of its contents. At that time the government's effort, ultimately successful, to convince the political public that the Chinese, with a sudden 'unprovoked aggression,' had caught India unawares in a sort of Himalayan Pearl Harbor was in its early stages, and the Report's cool and detailed analysis, if made public, would have shown that to be self-exculpatory mendacity.

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2. As can be seen from the above it is obvious that the Indian military
had not planned a military campaign against China properly, however
contrary to the mantra from members of BR and certain Indian nationalists
the soldiers facing Chinese troops were not some college kids

Now many units of the once crack Indian 4th Division dissolved into rout without giving battle and, by November 20, there was no organised Indian resistance anywhere in the disputed territories. On that day, Beijing announced a unilateral ceasefire and intention to withdraw its forces: Nehru, this time, tacitly accepted.

Thus it is obvious to anyone that if you decide to launch a campaign
against a nation and lose please don't behave like children and whine
about 'but they used human-wave tactics' (they didn't) or 'they
outnumbered us' (why didn't you think of that prior to attacking?)

As for comments about democratic india and how we have to provide
information to the public...

After consultation with Mullik, Palit took it upon himself to rule that HB/B should not have access to any documents emanating from the civil side -- in other words, he blindfolded the enquiry, so far as he could, as to the nexus between the civil and military. As Palit smugly recounts his story, in an autobiography published in 1991, he personally faced down both Henderson Brooks and Bhagat, rode out their formal complaints about his obstructionism, and prevented them from prying into the 'high level policies and decisions' which he maintained were none of their business.

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Jagan

Just Hatched
Registered Member
FreeAsia2000 said:
Welcome to Mr Jagan. No offense Jagan but I would call you probably the
most biased person after reading some of the stuff on your site so forgive
me if I take your claims with a pinch of salt.

If you mean the forum, ofcourse we are biased - I dont expect to come to sinodefence and expect them to be pro-india. I expect them to be pro-chinese. So naturally BR will always be a nationalistic site - and it can be extreme in its opinions.

But if you are talking about the main site which has the actual content, I will disagree with you to a large extent. The Army Site IMHO does not have any 'created content'.. i.e content generated and written by the webmasters or by the forummembers. whatever is there is basically reproduction /rewrites from published sources or contributions from veterans. There are a number of articles written about LN Subramanian who has done lot of reading and done interviews in one context He had writtne only about the battles (Namka Chu, Rezang La) etc. I dont see anything biased in those articles. you may want to read them and then point out where they are wrong.

FreeAsia2000 said:
I'll use the indian website Rediff.com as a source if I may because you are obviously familiar with it's exposure of a number of Indian political and military scandals. Mr Neville Maxwell was able to get access to secret Indian documents which were NEVER revealed to Lt Com Calvin

Rediff is a great site, but its not a specialised military site. And they dont specialise in History .. They do bring out good articles but these are for the general public, not for dedicated historians.

Neville Maxwell has written his book in the 60s., or 1970. Contrary to Maxwell claims, he only saw some kind of a summary of the report, not the entire Hendorson-Brooks report. (Ref "Debacle to REvival" by SD Pradhan).

FreeAsia2000 said:
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Thus it is obvious to anyone that if you decide to launch a campaign
against a nation and lose please don't behave like children and whine
about 'but they used human-wave tactics' (they didn't) or 'they
outnumbered us' (why didn't you think of that prior to attacking?)

And when did i say that? I took only the example of Namka Chu and Rezang La (in Aksai Chin) when i take the examples of being outnumbered. I clearly said in Se La, India wsa sufficiently stocked - if not for poor leadership at the command level. ARe there any accounts of REzang La battle from the Chinese side (I think Nov 21/22 in the Chshul sector). There wree 120 Indian troops on the ridge - and all but five or six perished in the battle. Surely they would have been outnumbered? I would like to know if not.

As for comments about democratic india and how we have to provide
information to the public...

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Sorry , cant take Maxwell words for it. Rediff (Bless thier souls) does an impartial job most of the time. Neville Maxwell s left leanings are well known, While his book was good to an extent (his information on the indian army's problems in command was quite good), he has developed this extreme hatred of everything Indian over the years. It is very much present in his writings. For example he wrote an article in 1968-69 or was it early 70s predicting that India wont last beyond 1990.... I dont need to elaborate on that.

And what does maxwell do currently, he runs a thinktank dedicated to promoting study of China and its influence. He is a chinese specialist - and like it or not is quite biased towards China and is anti-india.
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Welcome Jagan from my behalf also. It's good to have new members wiht lots of knowlidge and civilized ways of expressing it. Now i do have to remind you and others that we are stricktly militaryforum, concerated on chinese military particulary. We do allow discussion of other militaryes as well, but it should be done in the dedicated world armed forces subforum. You also find out that we keep extremely strict line prevent topics going offtopic so i advise all to just stick in the Sino-Indian conflict 1962 in this thread. Discussion in other matters can be done in other threads.

Also please take notice that we wont allow any sort of political discussion which has nothing to do wiht military, as they tend to be the most flaming subjects and usually couses trouple to us mods.

But i hope i didn't scare you too much, enjoy and be kind and give proper introduction of yourself in the Members club room so that we know who we are talking to :china: :china:
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Jagan said:
If you mean the forum, ofcourse we are biased - I dont expect to come to sinodefence and expect them to be pro-india. I expect them to be pro-chinese. So naturally BR will always be a nationalistic site - and it can be extreme in its opinions.

Rediff is a great site, but its not a specialised military site. And they dont specialise in History .. They do bring out good articles but these are for the general public, not for dedicated historians.

Neville Maxwell has written his book in the 60s., or 1970. Contrary to Maxwell claims, he only saw some kind of a summary of the report, not the entire Hendorson-Brooks report. (Ref "Debacle to REvival" by SD Pradhan).

Sorry , cant take Maxwell words for it. Rediff (Bless thier souls) does an impartial job most of the time. Neville Maxwell s left leanings are well known, While his book was good to an extent (his information on the indian army's problems in command was quite good), he has developed this extreme hatred of everything Indian over the years. It is very much present in his writings. For example he wrote an article in 1968-69 or was it early 70s predicting that India wont last beyond 1990.... I dont need to elaborate on that.

And what does maxwell do currently, he runs a thinktank dedicated to promoting study of China and its influence. He is a chinese specialist - and like it or not is quite biased towards China and is anti-india.

Hi

Personally I would expect the forum to be unbiased in terms of analysis and biased in terms of content. Thus Gollevainen does a GREAT job of ensuring we stay ON TOPIC by reference to affairs that must pertain in some way to China
however I would be appalled if suddenly we were all expected to announce that everything created by China was the best in the world. Yes and I'm aware that this problem isn't unique to BR...certain pakistani forums have the same problem...because i was so tired of his bull about pakistan producing the best in the world i recently told a friend that pakistan had produced a double barrelled tank....:)

Do you have any evidence that his analysis is incorrect ? ie other documents ? bear in mind that it was a deliberate decision on Nehru's part not to keep minuites of the meetings. You would accept however that Neville was present at the time in India when the war took place and it was his willingness to ask questions when many western commentators were accepting uncritically indian claims that had him nearly thrown out of India ?

Btw you can read maxwell's book here so we don't have to blame rediff for their failures though you would accept that rediff has been proved spectacularly correct on Indian affairs in the past ?

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Maxwell writes for an asian affairs journal...very indepth and authoritative perhaps you can check at

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His last article is titled "The Sino-Indian Border: A Scenario for Settling this Vexatious Issue"

Also your perhaps I should give Mr Maxwell the last word regarding your comment that 'he said India would fall apart"

(It is typical of this kind of reaction that it contains some misrepresentation. For example, Mr. Plastrik says, "Maxwell states that India will 'inevitably' fall apart," although I make no such statement. The phrase, "the inevitability of it all," which Mr. Plastrik quotes, referred in my review to events in the final phase of the dissolution of Pakistan.)

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Perhaps you should read the source for yourself rather than relying upon biased hearsay
 

Indianfighter

Junior Member
I have read Neville Maxwell's article, and I too think that he harbours pro-China viewpoints.
For a completely neutral and technical viewpoint of the politics and military action of the 1962 war, I strongly suggest the reference of the research paper by the former US Navy Lt. commander, James Calvin.

a] Aksai Chin was handed over by a representative of independent Tibet to British India, without Chinese intervention. Thats why when Indian forces moved to reclaim Aksai Chin, they were acting in accordance with the signed treaty and not "provoked aggression" as Mr. Maxwell stated.

b] That is the reason why His Holiness the Dalai Lama is a guest of India, and so are thousands of Tibetans who seek independence from China.
India doesnt recognize Tibet to be a part of China, but a territory that is under occupation and still officilly demands the seccession of Aksai Chin from Chinese control to India.

c] The cause for the so-termed "cowardice" was because India had already lost or was badly losing a lot of territory, and the generals in upper command did not want to lose more men in fighting a much stronger enemy.

Please do note, that it was this very defeat that Pakistan hoped to exploit just 3 years later in the 1965 war, when it tried to capture Kashmir from India and LOST.
India ended up capturing over half of Pakistani territory, and also occupied some parts of Pak occupied Kashmir including Kargil. Pakistan also occupied large parts of Indian territory, but couldnt achieve any of its objectives especially vis-a-vis Kashmir.
9 years later, in 1971, India liberated East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) from the Pakistani military.

Hence to say that the Indian army is incompetent or "cowardly" would be, naive.
 

Jagan

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Free Asia,

I do have Maxwells book in my personal collection. I have almost every other book on the China War written by Indian army personnel till the 90s. I can say with conviction that most of the military history books written on the china war by indian army officers or historians are quite fair - they tell the story as it is . They point out the flaws ans lacunae as they exist. some of them ofcourse are more like personal accounts and would have been written keeping in view the personal defence of the author. but other than that, regimental histories, and others are quite fair and accurate.

My quote on maxwell was based on this
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the premise of the above link is like this - there are two ways of looking at india - the optimistic view and the pssimistic view. maxwell took the latter - which meant he gives no credit to india or its inbuilt strengths like democracy. and we are talking of 1967, which i believe was much before he wrote his book. Maxwells book is a good read, but its not the final say on this topic. He had based his book on Kauls and Dalvis book for what happened at the Namka Chu battle. for the rest of it, I am not sure what his sources are (Apart from the dubious claim that he had the henderson brooks report - he probably had a summary of it rather than the complete report). there have been many other histories that have been written after the war that give better descriptions of the battle. They are too numerous to list out here.


Off the topic: Coming to the sites - When it involves India and Pakistan, the opposite of what you say ("I would expect the forum to be unbiased in terms of analysis and biased in terms of content. ") stands true most of the time.. Usually the sites are done by a smaller team, perhaps half a dozen people. The forums on the other hand consist of thousands of people posting in thier free time. to expect unbiased opinion out of them is unrealistc. Whether its an indian site or a pakistani site.
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Indianfighter said:
I have read Neville Maxwell's article, and I too think that he harbours pro-China viewpoints.

Hence to say that the Indian army is incompetent or "cowardly" would be, naive.

Hi

India doesnt recognize Tibet to be a part of China,

Actually it does.

In 2003, India said it recognized the Tibet region as an autonomous part of China and Beijing recognized Sikkim as part of India while both sides decided to appoint special representatives for finding a solution to the boundary question.

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please see also

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I could give you more sources but maybe your're in possession of some
information that India has decided not to recognise it again ?

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said that the Indian soldiers were
cowards. I believe that India lost because Nehru was being his usual
duplitious self.

As for 1965 or 1971 or Brass tacks, Kargil etc NONE of these are relevant :eek:ff
 

vincelee

Junior Member
"Hence to say that the Indian army is incompetent or "cowardly" would be, naive."

Really Indian "fighter"? I think you should look into the POW counts.
 
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