Should China respect sanctions on Iran?

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
lol you'll have to back up your claims with credible sources. its hard for me to believe that either China and Russia have exported nuclear technology to iran, if you say pakistan, maybe, China and Russia...you are really pushing it.

again i dont know why you are underestimating the farsightedness of the Chinese and Russian government. if its obvious to you and i that a nuclear iran is not consistent with their national interest then you better expect them to know a helluva lot more. aside from destabilizing the region, for Russia, a nuclear iran would invite the US NMD back to Europe, and for China it'd encourage DPRK to continue their strive for nukes and thus other countries with potential capability. however, the point of the talks over iran's nuclear project is not simply to disarm the country, but to do so in a way that preserves the balance of power. in some ways the western allies are calling for sanctions expecting the Russians and Chinese to block them, and the Russians and the Chinese are blocking the sanctions expecting more to come. because if you make iran feeling isolated, its just gonna make them feel insecure and drive them even further in their nuclear ambitions. i would focus on analyzing why China and Russia are doing what they are doing rather than questioning their ability to make the right decisions, afterall they have access to way more information than we do.

According to "Nuclear Jihadist", a biography of AQ Khan, some Chinese warhead designs and other bits of technology from China ended up in the hands of the Iranians, some of which passed through AQ Khan. So China has made an intellectual contribution to Iran's program although it exist in a grey area. It certainly wasn't entirely intentional, but the full path and content of the information is not publicly known, so we don't know how much the Chinese knew about what information was leaking out of China and Pakistan to Iran. At the end of the day, some Chinese tech did end up in Iran. That's all I'm saying.

More importantly, China blocked sanctions against Iran earlier when they would have had a better chance of changing Iran's behavior. China may or may not be willing to back sanctions now, but either way sanctions aren't going to get Iran to give up it's nuclear program.

They're still worth a try though, for use within the context of wider negotiations, and to show other countries that proliferation has consequences. Sadly I don't have any illusions that the Western nations will be able to come up with any sort of coherent, satisfactory response to Iran's program. And only a fool would believe that what's happened to Iran will discourage other nations from developing nukes.

Lastly, don't be so trusting of governments. It's not a good idea to believe that "They know so much more than us, so therefore they must be making right decisions". If I were criticizing the US government for making short-sighted decisions, I doubt you would disagree with me. People at the top decision making positions in governments may have access to much more information than we do, but they're not much smarter. At least not much smarter than the smart posters on this board. Historical events are caused as much by mistakes and incompetence and institutional inertia as they are by wise grand strategy.
 
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montyp165

Junior Member
Lastly, don't be so trusting of governments. It's not a good idea to believe that "They know so much more than us, so therefore they must be making right decisions". If I were criticizing the US government for making short-sighted decisions, I doubt you would disagree with me. People at the top decision making positions in governments may have access to much more information than we do, but they're not much smarter. At least not much smarter than the smart posters on this board. Historical events are caused as much by mistakes and incompetence and institutional inertia as they are by wise grand strategy.

There's also willfull ignorance on top of that as well, I didn't realize just how bad it can get until I saw it up close.
 

vesicles

Colonel
There's also willfull ignorance on top of that as well, I didn't realize just how bad it can get until I saw it up close.

AND we are still assuming all these decisions are being made out of good intentions. What about those corrupted officials who simply are simply doing things to advance their personal gain, either monetary gain or for their own political future??
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
Lastly, don't be so trusting of governments. It's not a good idea to believe that "They know so much more than us, so therefore they must be making right decisions". If I were criticizing the US government for making short-sighted decisions, I doubt you would disagree with me. People at the top decision making positions in governments may have access to much more information than we do, but they're not much smarter. At least not much smarter than the smart posters on this board. Historical events are caused as much by mistakes and incompetence and institutional inertia as they are by wise grand strategy.

lol calm down, with all due respect i trust the government more than anyone on this forum, they do know more than us. if you were to criticize on US government's short-sighted decisions, i'll try to figure out for what political reasons they arrived at that decision. i am a firm believer that however smart anyone on this forum claims to be, that individual cannot perform any better if he were to be seated in the post that he criticizes, whatever that maybe.
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
There's also willfull ignorance on top of that as well, I didn't realize just how bad it can get until I saw it up close.

lol we got some juicy insider info here? share em if you got em.

in the end its all about the classic cooperation dilemma where individual acting rationally may produce irrational results as a collective group. but that's the same no matter who you are, unless your ability really is a whole other league
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
AND we are still assuming all these decisions are being made out of good intentions. What about those corrupted officials who simply are simply doing things to advance their personal gain, either monetary gain or for their own political future??

that's not the individual's problem, its the institution's problem. say if something happened in the middle east requires the US to calm down. but everyone right now is playing the populist card, you might end up having a bunch of bellicose officials and congressman for all the wrong reasons, but if you look at each one individually, if they dont bark, they lose their seat. so that has nothing to do with intentions, where you sit determines where you stand, as the old saying goes.
 

montyp165

Junior Member
lol we got some juicy insider info here? share em if you got em.

From my work vantage point, the American public really should keep a better eye on their bureaucrats, for the civil service is more focused on penny pinching and PR than whether the public is adequately served, and the interagency territoriality was surprising too.
 

jantxv

New Member
The issue of more Iranian sanctions has been in the news a lot more recently. The prospect of a multi-lateral alliance of nations supporting stronger sanctions against Iran outside of the Security Council at the UN has been brought up once more. The Following link is from the English version of the People's Daily.
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Another article, German, published last month citing the consensus of the commencement of open warfare in Iran.
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pla101prc

Senior Member
The issue of more Iranian sanctions has been in the news a lot more recently. The prospect of a multi-lateral alliance of nations supporting stronger sanctions against Iran outside of the Security Council at the UN has been brought up once more. The Following link is from the English version of the People's Daily.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Another article, German, published last month citing the consensus of the commencement of open warfare in Iran.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

a multi-nation sanction is certainly possible, being the best way to circumvent the UN security council. i have been expecting this gesture from germany since netanyahu visited europe last week. it definitely is important for israel to look beyond the US, with this administration not so keen on upholding all of its interests.

but there is a difference between the stance of EU and that of israel, EU does not want armed intervention, and they make sure of this by cooperating with israel. we are seeing EU gradually becoming more hardline towards iran after it becomes clear that no military action by the US will take place, because if things does get that far oil price is gonna shoot through the roof.
 
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