Shenyang FC-31 / J-31 Fighter Demonstrator

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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The USN and PLAN face dramatically different geographic circumstances and restrictions. The PLAN's potential theaters of conflicts will be near Chinese shores, the defense of which will be carried out by land-based J-20s. The carriers are designed to protect Chinese shipping lanes, especially portions that traverse the Middle East / IOR and Africa; for these potential opponents, range and individual bomb load matters far less than versatility and tactical flexibility.

On the contrary I would argue that range/endurance and armament load are very important for Chinese carriers operating in the IOR. In that region, China will face regional navies armed with impressive 4+ generation and even some 5th generation fighters of their own that will be operating from home air bases. In that region China will face a similar dilemma to what USN carriers operating in the western pacific face -- i.e.: which is the need for long range, persistent combat air patrol.

We've of course been over the small number+longer range vs big number+shorter range balancing issue for carrier air wings.
For a carrier J-20 vs FC-31 derivative match up, it all depends on how the numbers carried vs range balance lies.
For example, on a given carrier, if a J-20 has a 50% greater range than FC-31 but said carrier can only carry 80% the number of FC-31s, then one could make an argument for J-20 over FC-31.
But if the J-20 has only 20% greater range than FC-31 and can only carry 70% the number of FC-31s, then it might tilt more towards FC-31.


Aircraft are tailored to their vessels, rarely vice versa.

Yes and no, it depends on what stage of development a carrier is at and what stage of development an aircraft is at. E.g. at this stage, if the Navy is still unsure of whether they want a J-20 or FC-31 derivative, I expect they will have specced 00X's elevator and overall flight deck in such a way which can accommodate the likely dimensions of both a J-20 derivative and an FC-31 derivative.



Just how long would it take for the J-20 to reach that level of economy of scale? If you are premising that the naval order for the FC-31 won't be significant, just how big would a naval J-20 order be (hint: less since each ship would carry fewer J-20 vs FC-31s)? Have we accounted for the fact that the J-20 will be bigger in most aspects (larger radar/weapons/engines/etc.) which will significantly drive up the price?

Land based J-20 orders + carrier based J-20 derivative orders would likely lower production costs overall in common components, versus an order of only carrier based FC-31 derivatives, even when factoring a plausible multiplier for the fact that a smaller number of carrier based J-20s will be bought than if the navy chooses a carrier based FC-31.

The problem with a carrier based FC-31 is that it the Air Force is not interested. If the Air Force is intending to buy an FC-31 derivative as well then that would change everything. But the Air Force isn't and looks less likely to by the year, so if the Navy chooses an FC-31 derivative for its carriers, then the Navy alone are basically going to own the entire unique type of aircraft.



The FC-31 is lacking subsystems, which could be installed with relative ease, but it seems to me that its design is near finalization, judging by its closeness to the scale models. Additionally, SAC is still putting out the claim that it can get a production FC-31 to fly by 2019. In fact, given that the FC-31 has dual front wheels and that SAC has far more experience in the R&D of carrier-based jets than CAC, the FC-31 will have a much smoother transition to a navalized model than the J-20.

I think there is a compelling argument for why the PLAN may seriously consider both a J-20 derivative and an FC-31 derivative for its carrier based fighter, but I find the idea that the FC-31 will somehow have a "much smoother transition" to becoming a developed navalized fighter, to be rather hard to believe.

As far as we know, neither of the two flying FC-31 airframes are flying with any form of subsystems integrated into their airframe.
J-20 otoh by this point should been flying, testing and operating with early production level avionics and weapons systems and datalinks for years now, across at least 8 prototypes and anywhere up to a dozen or more serial aircraft by now.

Any carrier based derivative of J-20 will be able to leverage from the subsystems of the land based J-20 that will be much more mature than the nonexistent subsystems for FC-31 by the time the Navy gives the go ahead for one of the two options to be chosen.


Both J-20 and FC-31 would have to undergo substantial airframe modifications to accommodate carrier operations.
FC-31 does indeed have "twin nose gear" -- but that is like talking about the icing rather than the cake when we think about the rest of the modifications that the overall airframe that both aircraft will have to go through... folding wings, strengthened nose and rear landing gear, catapult nose gear, anterior and posterior strengthening of the airframe, developing more corrosion resistant skin, and of course integration of a talk hook.


I would say the only slightly compelling premise for the idea that FC-31 might have one area of advantage in development is that SAC has already developed J-15 so it has more experience than CAC in developing carrier aircraft, however considering the overall competency that CAC has demonstrated over the last decade I would be surprised if CAC is unable to compete in this area.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
The Pakistani purchase of JF-17 was motivated primarily by availability and affordability. Whether it was inducted in PLAAF and export sales was secondary to the primary goal of meeting Pakistani's requirements of affordable and cost-effective replacement of aging aircraft.

Similarly, Pakistani purchase of FC-31 will be motivated by availability and affordability. Whether or not J-31 is inducted in PLAAF or has potential successful export is not Pakistan's worry since there is no joint venture on FC-31 design, R&D, and production.

Whether JF-17 is inducted into PLAAF or has successful export sales is completely irrelevant to Pakistani purchase of FC-31, which neither has a joint venture, nor are their readily available and affordable alternatives to Pakistan in the market place to meet Pakistan's 5th gen requirements.

Perhaps, but a much more significant goal for the JF-17 program was to develop Pakistan's nascent aeronautical industry, the possibility of which hinged upon successful exports. China's refusal to induct the aircraft, despite earlier promises, and the generally-poor export record of the JF-17 failed to meet that goal.

Recall that the JF-17 program was 60% funded by Pakistani money and that SAC is also calling for R&D investment for its FC-31 program. If the Chinese essentially turned their backs on PAC Kamra after the latter had put down a good portion of its investment, why would they not feel any suspicion this time around?

Neither has TF-X been granted an export license.

That's because TF-X is far more of a paper-drawing, it hasn't even advanced beyond the basic modelling stage with wind tunnels. With an anticipated maiden flight of 2023, and serial production in 2025, the Pakistanis would have already be contending with dozens of Indian Su-57 twin-seat fighters with 2nd-gen engines by then.

The lack of a FC-31 export license could mean a few things:

(1) It is not going to be a worthwhile export that warrants potentially revealing key technologies to potential US allies.
(2) A few subsystems are reliant on foreign parts (hint: engines).
(3) The PLAAF/PLANAF is still in the process of evaluating the design.
(4) Further revisions are to be expected (unlikely this)

The reasons for the TF-X and FC-31 not being granted licenses are very, very different.

Furthermore, India has it's own indigenous HAL AMCA program, but it has not prevented them from seeking alternative foreign imports such as Su-57 PAKFA FGFA T-50. Therefore, Pakistan's own 5th gen (Project Azm) will not stop Pakistan from seeking foreign imports (Shenyang FC-31).

I seriously doubt Pakistan will wait (optimistically) 8-9 years to get it's first TF-X when the FC-31 is ready off-the-shelf in 2-3 years.

The FGFA and AMCA are never meant to replace or substitute one another; if the AMCA gets into service in time, it will almost certainly serve as a lightweight complement (and a potential carrier-based platform) to the heavier T-50.

Much like a notional J-20 + FC-31 or J-20 + J-2X combo.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
On the contrary I would argue that range/endurance and armament load are very important for Chinese carriers operating in the IOR. In that region, China will face regional navies armed with impressive 4+ generation and even some 5th generation fighters of their own that will be operating from home air bases. In that region China will face a similar dilemma to what USN carriers operating in the western pacific face -- i.e.: which is the need for long range, persistent combat air patrol.

This is what I mean by geographic differences. The shipping lanes along the IOR and the MidEast are straddling the shoreline and sometimes even sandwiched by land masses. You don't need a 1500+-km-radius fighter to carry out operations over lands that are only a few hundred (or sometimes, a few) kilometers wide, especially with the advent of permanent Chinese bases in the area. What you do need, IMHO, is a vessel that can maximize her airwing capacity to be able to take on numerous targets, under numerous circumstances, simultaneously.

This is very different from the WestPac region in which US aircraft can essentially scream towards the Chinese coastline, launch stand-off weaponry, and retreat to the safety of the open ocean.

We've of course been over the small number+longer range vs big number+shorter range balancing issue for carrier air wings.
For a carrier J-20 vs FC-31 derivative match up, it all depends on how the numbers carried vs range balance lies.
For example, on a given carrier, if a J-20 has a 50% greater range than FC-31 but said carrier can only carry 80% the number of FC-31s, then one could make an argument for J-20 over FC-31.
But if the J-20 has only 20% greater range than FC-31 and can only carry 70% the number of FC-31s, then it might tilt more towards FC-31.

Agreed.

Yes and no, it depends on what stage of development a carrier is at and what stage of development an aircraft is at. E.g. at this stage, if the Navy is still unsure of whether they want a J-20 or FC-31 derivative, I expect they will have specced 00X's elevator and overall flight deck in such a way which can accommodate the likely dimensions of both a J-20 derivative and an FC-31 derivative.

Hasn't worked that way with other navies, AFAIK. A ship's service life (especially Type 003 and onward) far exceeds that of an aircraft family. I don't rule out future modifications to the Type 002/3 as they near the end of their service lives, but I've never heard of any navy modifying the design of the vessels to accommodate their airwings. Of course, things would be different if China was only able to produce or procure one type of naval fighter, but that is not the case. A carrier is built to suit a navy's doctrine (which might in parallel influence fighter design) but the aircraft would ultimately adapt to the ship.

Land based J-20 orders + carrier based J-20 derivative orders would likely lower production costs overall in common components, versus an order of only carrier based FC-31 derivatives, even when factoring a plausible multiplier for the fact that a smaller number of carrier based J-20s will be bought than if the navy chooses a carrier based FC-31.

I don't think I drive home enough the point that a navalized J-20 will be a different fighter from the current land-based J-20 we see. These will be developed and built on separate assembly lines using separate subsystems (aside from a few core ones). You can't substitute a naval J-20 with an AF J-20 (and vice versa) much like you wouldn't replace a land-based J-16 with a J-15S.

Same goes for the FC-31.

The problem with a carrier based FC-31 is that it the Air Force is not interested. If the Air Force is intending to buy an FC-31 derivative as well then that would change everything. But the Air Force isn't and looks less likely to by the year, so if the Navy chooses an FC-31 derivative for its carriers, then the Navy alone are basically going to own the entire unique type of aircraft.

What's wrong with a service branch owning an entire type of aircraft? Did this not work out with the USN and their F/A-18s and F-14s (and the USAF with their Eagles, Falcons, Raptors)?

Why would the PLAN care if a fighter fit PLAAF doctrine or not? On this note, I firmly believe that the PLAAF will sooner or later procure a lower-end 5th generation platform (doesn't have to be FC-31).

I think there is a compelling argument for why the PLAN may seriously consider both a J-20 derivative and an FC-31 derivative for its carrier based fighter, but I find the idea that the FC-31 will somehow have a "much smoother transition" to becoming a developed navalized fighter, to be rather hard to believe.

As far as we know, neither of the two flying FC-31 airframes are flying with any form of subsystems integrated into their airframe.
J-20 otoh by this point should been flying, testing and operating with early production level avionics and weapons systems and datalinks for years now, across at least 8 prototypes and anywhere up to a dozen or more serial aircraft by now.

Any carrier based derivative of J-20 will be able to leverage from the subsystems of the land based J-20 that will be much more mature than the nonexistent subsystems for FC-31 by the time the Navy gives the go ahead for one of the two options to be chosen.

I'd like to dispel the notion that a fighter under development implies that all of its subsystems must be under development as well. There is nothing preventing SAC from choosing off-the shelf or near-completed subsystems for its FC-31 fighter. In fact, the EOTS system and many of its electro-optic devices have been developed, tested, and even cleared for export by A-Star systems and other vendors.

Keeping in mind that a navalized variant of J-20/FC-31 would essentially require brand-new R&D work (albeit a bit faster), I fail to see how CAC, a company that does not have already-developed catapult-able landing gear or experience in such a field, could produce tangible results faster than the PLAN's sole supplier of carrier-based aviation hardware.

Both J-20 and FC-31 would have to undergo substantial airframe modifications to accommodate carrier operations.
FC-31 does indeed have "twin nose gear" -- but that is like talking about the icing rather than the cake when we think about the rest of the modifications that the overall airframe that both aircraft will have to go through... folding wings, strengthened nose and rear landing gear, catapult nose gear, anterior and posterior strengthening of the airframe, developing more corrosion resistant skin, and of course integration of a talk hook.

And which company has more experience (and/or developed examples) in airframe strengthening, landing gear development, folding wings, and what you mentioned? (Not CAC)

I would say the only slightly compelling premise for the idea that FC-31 might have one area of advantage in development is that SAC has already developed J-15 so it has more experience than CAC in developing carrier aircraft, however considering the overall competency that CAC has demonstrated over the last decade I would be surprised if CAC is unable to compete in this area.

SAC has shown not only experience, but also intent in developing a carrier-based FC-31 variant. CAC, on the other hand, has yet to reveal the slightest hint that a carrier-borne J-20 design is even under consideration.

In summary, there is zero evidence (informal or formal) that the J-20J is even a viable candidate at this point.
 

jobjed

Captain
SAC has shown not only experience, but also intent in developing a carrier-based FC-31 variant. CAC, on the other hand, has yet to reveal the slightest hint that a carrier-borne J-20 design is even under consideration.

In summary, there is zero evidence (informal or formal) that the J-20J is even a viable candidate at this point.

Did you get acute amnesia and forgotten all the rumours from big shrimps of a CAC vs SAC carrier-aircraft competition? What are you talking about "yet to reveal the slightest hint?" We got a ton of hints from multiple big shrimps.

Also, experience is not a guarantor or possibly even significant factor in the PLA's selection criteria. I've posted this before; SAC had more experience in fighter design when CAC was given the J-10 project and SAC had more experience in heavy twin-engine fighter manufacturing when CAC was given the J-20 project. In both cases, the supposedly "more experienced" SAC lost.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Did you get acute amnesia and forgotten all the rumours from big shrimps of a CAC vs SAC carrier-aircraft competition? What are you talking about "yet to reveal the slightest hint?" We got a ton of hints from multiple big shrimps.

Also, experience is not a guarantor or possibly even significant factor in the PLA's selection criteria. I've posted this before; SAC had more experience in fighter design when CAC was given the J-10 project and SAC had more experience in heavy twin-engine fighter manufacturing when CAC was given the J-20 project. In both cases, the supposedly "more experienced" SAC lost.

Sigh...

A CAC vs SAC competition does not equate a J-20 vs FC-31 competition! For all we know, CAC might be offering something completely different (and no, the big shrimps did not explicitly mention "J-20").

And when did I ever say that the FC-31 will be a guaranteed winner of the PLAN competition? All that can be objectively pointed out at this time is that SAC has demonstrated intent to develop a navalized FC-31 derivative (and has experience & existing products to back up their competency in this matter) whereas the same can not be certainly said of CAC.
 

jobjed

Captain
Sigh...

A CAC vs SAC competition does not equate a J-20 vs FC-31 competition! For all we know, CAC might be offering something completely different (and no, the big shrimps did not explicitly mention "J-20").

Neither does it equate to not-J-20 vs FC-31.

Everything you've said is not wrong but neither is it useful. There is nothing to indicate the PLAN finds SAC more technically competent than CAC like you do. You just have that impression because we have more information regarding the FC-31 project than we do of J-20. That tells us little because we already know the FC-31 is an export-oriented project which means its classification level is lower than indigenous-use projects so of course we'd get more information about it.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Neither does it equate to not-J-20 vs FC-31.

Everything you've said is not wrong but neither is it useful. There is nothing to indicate the PLAN finds SAC more technically competent than CAC like you do. You just have that impression because we have more information regarding the FC-31 project than we do of J-20. That tells us little because we already know the FC-31 is an export-oriented project which means its classification level is lower than indigenous-use projects so of course we'd get more information about it.

You're painting SAC/CAC with too broad of a brush.

Overall SAC cronyism and/or lack of apparent ingenuity doesn't mean it cannot excel in this particular area. Likewise, CAC's overall success in pushing its canard-delta jets won't necessary translate to a correspondent successful venture in naval-based fighters. If we are to distill CAC vs SAC in the realm of navalized carrier-borne fighters alone, yes, we can say that SAC has a technical advantage over CAC at this point in time.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
This is what I mean by geographic differences. The shipping lanes along the IOR and the MidEast are straddling the shoreline and sometimes even sandwiched by land masses. You don't need a 1500+-km-radius fighter to carry out operations over lands that are only a few hundred (or sometimes, a few) kilometers wide, especially with the advent of permanent Chinese bases in the area. What you do need, IMHO, is a vessel that can maximize her airwing capacity to be able to take on numerous targets, under numerous circumstances, simultaneously.

This is very different from the WestPac region in which US aircraft can essentially scream towards the Chinese coastline, launch stand-off weaponry, and retreat to the safety of the open ocean.

I absolutely disagree.

During a conflict with a near peer state in the IOR, Chinese carriers and Chinese shipping will find it hazardous to operate near landmasses and coasts. Chinese CSGs will not risk getting close to land based air power or close to land based AShMs or SSKs anymore than US would near Chinese CSGs. Instead, during a conflict with a near peer state, Chinese CSGs will operate deeper in the IOR.
Chinese air bases in the IOR or in North Africa (if China even has any depending on when this hypothetical conflict occurs) will be under risk of enemy air and missile bombardment as well, who will have access to their entire home based arsenal and ISR assets.
For such conflicts with near peer states in the IOR, long range will absolutely be necessary.


Hasn't worked that way with other navies, AFAIK. A ship's service life (especially Type 003 and onward) far exceeds that of an aircraft family. I don't rule out future modifications to the Type 002/3 as they near the end of their service lives, but I've never heard of any navy modifying the design of the vessels to accommodate their airwings. Of course, things would be different if China was only able to produce or procure one type of naval fighter, but that is not the case. A carrier is built to suit a navy's doctrine (which might in parallel influence fighter design) but the aircraft would ultimately adapt to the ship.

I wasn't talking about a navy modifying the design of a carrier that has already been built. I was talking about designing a carrier (i.e.: well before construction has begun) to accommodate the likely future projected dimensions of aircraft that have not yet been built.



I don't think I drive home enough the point that a navalized J-20 will be a different fighter from the current land-based J-20 we see. These will be developed and built on separate assembly lines using separate subsystems (aside from a few core ones). You can't substitute a naval J-20 with an AF J-20 (and vice versa) much like you wouldn't replace a land-based J-16 with a J-15S.

Same goes for the FC-31.

No one is talking about "substituting" a carrier based J-20 with a land based J-20.
We are talking about the degree of commonality which will reduce production/unit costs.



What's wrong with a service branch owning an entire type of aircraft? Did this not work out with the USN and their F/A-18s and F-14s (and the USAF with their Eagles, Falcons, Raptors)?

There's obviously nothing wrong with that.

But are you sure you want to make the argument that you believe the PLAN has the stomach to develop, build and maintain a type of aircraft which has zero commonality with the PLAAF (or indeed any other customer at all)? That is an argument that will be viewed very skeptically.


Why would the PLAN care if a fighter fit PLAAF doctrine or not? On this note, I firmly believe that the PLAAF will sooner or later procure a lower-end 5th generation platform (doesn't have to be FC-31).

I don't think I mentioned anything about the PLAN caring if a fighter fit PLAAF doctrine or not.

What I said was that if the PLAAF is not also buying the FC-31, then the entirety of the FC-31 derivative's costs will fall on the PLAN.


I'd like to dispel the notion that a fighter under development implies that all of its subsystems must be under development as well. There is nothing preventing SAC from choosing off-the shelf or near-completed subsystems for its FC-31 fighter. In fact, the EOTS system and many of its electro-optic devices have been developed, tested, and even cleared for export by A-Star systems and other vendors.

You can absolutely make that argument, however that doesn't change the fact that a carrier based J-20 will be able to leverage the J-20's subsystems which are far more mature than whatever off the shelf subsystems that a carrier FC-31 derivative will have to integrate.

My overall bottom line in the discussion about avionics/subsystems, is that a J-20 carrier derivative will have a far more mature subsystem family to equip itself with, compared to the subsystems that an FC-31 carrier derivative can have, and that will means the J-20 carrier derivative will have lower integration and testing costs and time in the domain of avionics and subsystems.



Keeping in mind that a navalized variant of J-20/FC-31 would essentially require brand-new R&D work (albeit a bit faster), I fail to see how CAC, a company that does not have already-developed catapult-able landing gear or experience in such a field, could produce tangible results faster than the PLAN's sole supplier of carrier-based aviation hardware.

I'm not sure if CAC will be faster, but I do think that the engineering know how needed to develop the structural modifications and landing gear to suit a carrier will not be a challenge to CAC. CAC might well be slower than SAC in developing this aspect of their aircraft (continued below).



And which company has more experience (and/or developed examples) in airframe strengthening, landing gear development, folding wings, and what you mentioned? (Not CAC)

Yes, yes, but how much do we think CAC will be behind the curve by?

Will CAC take 20% longer than SAC to develop the necessary carrier mods for a J-20 derivative than SAC for a FC-31 carrier derivaitve? 50 longer? 100% longer? How long in terms of absolute time and resources will development of the structural aspects of each aircraft take?

Then there's the time for development and testing and integration of the other areas of both aircraft; namely avionics and related subsystems. Who will be faster in that regard, and what is the absolute time and resources needed for this? I suspect it will be much greater than the time needed to develop the avionics and subsystems.



SAC has shown not only experience, but also intent in developing a carrier-based FC-31 variant. CAC, on the other hand, has yet to reveal the slightest hint that a carrier-borne J-20 design is even under consideration.

Has SAC shown an "intent" to develop a carrier based FC-31 variant? We've seen a model of an FC-31 v1 with a PLAN flag, yes, but that's basically it. Far from compelling, especially considering that model didn't even show things like folding wings or tail hook. For all we know it was just a land based FC-31 v1 with a PLAN flag.
If that is the standard of "intent" that we are registering, then what about the supercarrier model we saw earlier this year which showed a flight deck full of J-20?

No, I believe there has been zero credible indication of "intent" from both SAC and CAC regarding a willingness to develop a carrier based FC-31 or carrier based J-20.

In fact, the discussion of carrier based 5th gen over the last few years has never relied on indications from SAC or CAC -- it has all been from credible rumours.



In summary, there is zero evidence (informal or formal) that the J-20J is even a viable candidate at this point.

Um, what?

No, that isn't how it works.

For years, we have heard from credible rumours derivatives of J-20 and FC-31 have been the competitors for the carrier based 5th gen ticket.
There is nothing we have yet which would suggest otherwise as of yet.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
You're painting SAC/CAC with too broad of a brush.

Overall SAC cronyism and/or lack of apparent ingenuity doesn't mean it cannot excel in this particular area. Likewise, CAC's overall success in pushing its canard-delta jets won't necessary translate to a correspondent successful venture in naval-based fighters. If we are to distill CAC vs SAC in the realm of navalized carrier-borne fighters alone, yes, we can say that SAC has a technical advantage over CAC at this point in time.

If you are talking about experience in terms of developing the structure and associated naval modifications, and experience in carrier based testing of carrier based fighters, you are correct.

However, developing a carrier borne fighter is much more than just that. There is the whole other issue of actually developing a fighter, integrating the subsystems and testing it as well.

Do not miss the forest for the trees. SAC does likely at this stage have more experience in the specific carrier-based modifications that are needed based on their experience with the J-15 programme.
But in terms of the overall effort of developing a carrier borne fighter, I think one would find it hard to argue that CAC has proven itself far more over the last decade, and if CAC offers a J-20 derivative then one cannot ignore the massive benefits of the development experience of developing and testing J-20 and the maturity of J-20's subsystems.
 

kurutoga

Junior Member
Registered Member
If the carrier only brings one type of fighter jet, it need to be multi-role. J-20 being A2A only, will require modifications. Or, a lower cost strike aircarft can be brought on board. If those tasks require the jets to be 5th gen, then a heavily modified J-20 or navy J-31 would be options. But if PLAN thinks J-20 plus J-15 will work, there is no reason to develop J-31 for carriers.
 
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