Science Thread

[manqiangrexue]

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Wow, big funding boosts for R&D from the Biden's budget proposal. Thats like 20% budget increase for every science agency in a single year.

China should take note with their pathetic "7% annual increase on basic science".

The US has just started and it increased its bigger than China's R&D budget, by 20% in a single year.

Xi better take the signal and if he really wants to compete with the US as he has said many times, then his 7% is nothing against the US.

In a single year 20% increase. Then imagine, next year and the year after what more increases will happen? Xi must have thought that the US is a paper tiger, now he is going to understand what will happen when the US starts throwing money for R&D.

The test is if Biden manages to have his budget proposal pass the Congress but i think he will manage. So far he has shown his political acumen

I thought we already did this. Didn't we already do this? That's right, we already did this and you read it because you gave both replies a like each, so why are you back here freaking out about a proposed US budget hike that is reactionary to China's success and fails to tackle the cultural issue of why American science is failing to retain its edge?

American Economics Thread

Let China build the infrastructure in the USA, it will get done, no talk just get done and cheaper Yes, but if the Fed Govt has prohibited the use of Chinese made equipment in certain areas, why would they let them bid for Fed projects? Heck. new schools and offices might be implanted with bugs.

www.sinodefenceforum.com

American Economics Thread

No plan in the US lasts 10 years with Democrats and Republicans at each other's throats. The timeline itself shows me the delusion. 18B a year for R&D and 30B a year for manufacturing? In American hands that blow up the bill for every little thing? I don't see the threat. This is all he could...

www.sinodefenceforum.com

And regarding China's 7%, it's a written formality to have a budget. China's budget changes according to need; if the opportunity is there to spend more money for critical results, it'll be in the bank account overnight. No 6 month congress battle needed. That's the advantage of a cohesive government over one that is made of 2 (politically) warring factions always trying to take each other's scalps.

 

[gelgoog]

It is no use to make huge funding increases in one year for something like that.
Some things need more time than money and basic research is one of them.

 

[voyager1]

It is no use to make huge funding increases in one year for something like that.
Some things need more time than money and basic research is one of them.

It depends if there is capacity available.

IMO, the US has a huge capacity for R&D and it can throw plenty of money on it until it hits the limits

Regarding China, to be fair, it doesn't have a lot of capacity so thats why I think the increase is so small. It urgently needs to build good universities and institutions to monitor and allocate funds

 

[gelgoog]

Regarding China, to be fair, it doesn't have a lot of capacity so thats why I think the increase is so small. It urgently needs to build good universities and institutions to monitor and allocate funds

China already has plenty of good universities. They could expand those with campuses on 2nd tier cities or make investments in existing universities. But I think what would be most important would be to expand the research institutions and the existing equipment to do basic research on them. China also seems to lack proper connections between research institutes and the private sector from what it looks like to me.
They also need to push the private sector to do research partnerships to get rid of external suppliers.

For example each smartphone vendor has its own chip design team while companies like Unisoc flounder. It simply makes no sense.
If I was the Chinese government I would probably push Tsinghua Holdings to break Unisoc from the rest of the company. Their merger with Spreadtrum I think made things worse. Then the smartphone vendors could make small investments into it much like what is done with ARM.

 

[manqiangrexue]

It depends if there is capacity available.

IMO, the US has a huge capacity for R&D and it can throw plenty of money on it until it hits the limits

Regarding China, to be fair, it doesn't have a lot of capacity so thats why I think the increase is so small. It urgently needs to build good universities and institutions to monitor and allocate funds

How did you come to this conclusion? China has more STEM graduates/personnel than the US by several folds. If anything, the US is much closer to saturated and China has much more potential and capacity for growth. I wouldn't look too far into the 7% and 20% declarations, especially because "budget for scientific research" is a very loose term and can be modified to include or exclude things to make the number look bigger and smaller. And like I said before:

"And regarding China's 7%, it's a written formality to have a budget. China's budget changes according to need; if the opportunity is there to spend more money for critical results, it'll be in the bank account overnight. No 6 month congress battle needed. That's the advantage of a cohesive government over one that is made of 2 (politically) warring factions always trying to take each other's scalps."

China lacks neither the funds nor the awareness to boost its scientific output but likes to downplay things and keep movements opaque to keep the US from freaking out or properly preparing.

 

[horse]

A couple of old articles.


China's research papers lead the world in cutting-edge tech

Nikkei and Elsevier place the country atop 75% of the most important fields

YUKI OKOSHI, Nikkei staff writer
January 6, 2019 03:43 JST

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China passes US as world’s top researcher, showing its R&D might

NORIAKI KOSHIKAWA, Nikkei staff writer
August 8, 2020 03:19 JST

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[s002wjh]

How did you come to this conclusion? China has more STEM graduates/personnel than the US by several folds. If anything, the US is much closer to saturated and China has much more potential and capacity for growth. I wouldn't look too far into the 7% and 20% declarations, especially because "budget for scientific research" is a very loose term and can be modified to include or exclude things to make the number look bigger and smaller. And like I said before:

"And regarding China's 7%, it's a written formality to have a budget. China's budget changes according to need; if the opportunity is there to spend more money for critical results, it'll be in the bank account overnight. No 6 month congress battle needed. That's the advantage of a cohesive government over one that is made of 2 (politically) warring factions always trying to take each other's scalps."

China lacks neither the funds nor the awareness to boost its scientific output but likes to downplay things and keep movements opaque to keep the US from freaking out or properly preparing.

yea all those STEM graduate went to US and work there i mean how many of this forum member is currently living and working in China? not only that US attract alot india and other international student as well. Biden could just loose the ceiling for H1B, and most international STEM grad in US would likely apply and stay in US. heck, there is Tsinghua & beijing university alumni celebration in california every couple years.

 

[manqiangrexue]

yea all those STEM graduate went to US and work there

What does "all those" mean? How many STEM are in the US and how many are in China?

i mean how many of this forum member is currently living and working in China?

This is an English forum.

not only that US attract alot india and other international student as well.

The more Indians they attract the more they screw themselves over.

Biden could just loose the ceiling for H1B, and most international STEM grad in US would likely apply and stay in US.

Will the Republicans let him? How many will want to come/stay after seeing the racism and incompetence that the Trump/COVID episode revealed? Of the ones who work there, are they loyal to the US or simply wish to work in America as long as they are small fry then head home when they become big? China still makes it tough on the little guy but much easier on the genius.

heck, there is Tsinghua & beijing university alumni celebration in california every couple years.

Meaning what? How many people attend? How many people graduate those universities? Are you saying that a large percentage of them are in California?

 

[s002wjh]

What does "all those" mean? How many STEM are in the US and how many are in China?

This is an English forum.

well are you in US or in China? US hired some the brightest/talented ppl within international graduate in US
it doesn't matter its english forum or not, we talk about talents stay in US after they graduate. look at how many chinese/indian or other international talents work in US industry. nvidia/amd/intel etc etc. brain drain from china/india exist, and US is the main benefactor of this. Sure in recent years, more ppl from india/china moving back, but still most talented one stay in US. so yes, china has more STEM graduate then US, but if most talented one goes to US, then reality is US ripping the benefit. there are well over 300k chinese student in US each year, and that just from china. if Biden decide to loosen its H1B ceiling for high skill/high talented worker, how many of them will apply for H1B and stay in US. i know ppl dont want to hear this, but this is just the reality. US company have options to pick and choose these international graduate to work for them, so obviously they gonna pick the most talented/smartest one out of bunch.

 

[manqiangrexue]

well are you in US or in China? US hired some the brightest/talented ppl within international graduate in US
it doesn't matter its english forum or not, we talk about talents stay in US after they graduate. look at how many chinese/indian or other international talents work in US industry. nvidia/amd/intel etc etc. brain drain from china/india exist, and US is the main benefactor of this. Sure in recent years, more ppl from india/china moving back, but still most talented one stay in US. so yes, china has more STEM graduate then US, but if most talented one goes to US, then reality is US ripping the benefit. there are well over 300k chinese student in US each year, and that just from china. if Biden decide to loosen its H1B ceiling for high skill/high talented worker, how many of them will apply for H1B and stay in US. i know ppl dont want to hear this, but this is just the reality. US company have options to pick and choose these international graduate to work for them, so obviously they gonna pick the most talented/smartest one out of bunch.

How do you suppose that the brightest people stayed in the US? I disagree with that. Most of the people who I know want to stay in the US because they can't keep up in China's work culture and some came because they can't keep up with the cutthroat competition in education. The US is comfortable and they can be lazy here. The most talented Chinese people I know go back to China and then start sending out Wechat invites for investment and cooperation in their start-ups. Picking the most talented is HARD. Every company tries to pick the best and brightest for its team but only very few of them end up star employees. Lots of them are just duds with dressed up resumes.

Of course it matters that this is an English forum; you asked how many forum members are in the US, on an English forum. Many people here are ABCs and proficient in English. Brain drain is about Chinese coming the US for higher education in STEM subjects and what choices they make afterwards. They most likely are not comfortable enough in English to go to an English forum to shoot the breeze.

Biden can't hike stuff up and down as he likes. Even if he wants to increase VISAS for Chinese and even if it benefits the US, Americans, including politicians in high places, don't want more Asians in the country. As a matter of fact, in contrast to what you recommend, American acceptance of Chinese students in STEM has dropped from the recent hatred. So what might seem like a smart move to you is anything but easy for the US to make.

Also, while brain drain was a serious problem when China was very poor and the US indisputably on top of the world, it is reversing and recently, they trend has sped up from American xenophobia and COVID.

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"In past years, more than 95 per cent of Chinese students obtaining an advanced degree in a developed country chose to stay there after graduation. By the end of last year, however, more than 83 per cent had returned to China, most within the five years starting in 2012."

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"About 80 percent of Chinese students who get degrees abroad now

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— up from about 33 percent in 2007, according to China’s Ministry of Education."