Russians are good with innovation. The combo LERX / canard, side and rear AESA on Su-57 are excellent. The combo lateral and ventral intake on Su-75 is terrific. The only problem with Russian products is they lack the capacity to make in any meaningful quantity, as demonstrated by Sputnik V.
Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)
- Thread starter A Bar Brother
- Start date
Yep, it all fall down on money. Su-57 will be build in more quantity than f-22 probably, but in 20years when there will be no f-22 left flying...
Su-57 is such a nice looking fighter and probably the best performer ever built. If it could have the F-35's build, avionics and sensors + fusion etc it would the best out of the lot. It's sort of like a game here where they're all fairly balanced. F-22 and Su-57 are both excellent performers but F-22 is aging and lacks the avionics, sensor fusion, optics etc of F-35 and J-20. The Su-57 seems to lack surface finishing but the Russians insist it doesn't and won't matter due to ROFAR (or the like), newer sensors, weapons etc. The F-35 isn't quite the performer as the other three. The J-20 seems actually to be a decent all rounder but would require WS-15 maturity to match performance.
If everything gets maxed out, the Su-57 would be the best performer with equally modern sensors, equipment and software. The F-35 has beaten the F-22 apparently in exercises iirc and beaten it quite soundly. Explaining why the USAF hasn't been in such a hurry to upgrade F-22s with the sensor and software packages the F-35 enjoys. Plus they may as well put the effort and resources into next gen anyway since they've decided neither existing platforms have the range they desire.
Russia wants to complete the ultimate Su-57 - with izd.30 and whatever new upgrades that will come with engine upgrade. If they manage to get the surfaces and manufacturing up to F-35 detail, it would be purchased by anyone who could afford it and avoid political fallout. We'll see if that eventuates but seems like it requires a lot more funding and time. For now, they're not in a hurry. No one is invading Russia but the US led western front has been attacking Russian interests for a long time now... and China's I might add. China needs to hurry up and triple its nuclear forces for that protection Russia already enjoys. For the Su-57, it's a shame it is slow to get up to that ideal status.
If everything gets maxed out, the Su-57 would be the best performer with equally modern sensors, equipment and software. The F-35 has beaten the F-22 apparently in exercises iirc and beaten it quite soundly. Explaining why the USAF hasn't been in such a hurry to upgrade F-22s with the sensor and software packages the F-35 enjoys. Plus they may as well put the effort and resources into next gen anyway since they've decided neither existing platforms have the range they desire.
Russia wants to complete the ultimate Su-57 - with izd.30 and whatever new upgrades that will come with engine upgrade. If they manage to get the surfaces and manufacturing up to F-35 detail, it would be purchased by anyone who could afford it and avoid political fallout. We'll see if that eventuates but seems like it requires a lot more funding and time. For now, they're not in a hurry. No one is invading Russia but the US led western front has been attacking Russian interests for a long time now... and China's I might add. China needs to hurry up and triple its nuclear forces for that protection Russia already enjoys. For the Su-57, it's a shame it is slow to get up to that ideal status.
Su-57 is sort of like Sputnik V. The results are good. The performance is promising. But it don't have the manufacturing capacity to make any real world difference, nor does Russia have any meaningful global soft power to sell it.
Russia's attitude to this is that they don't need so many units of Su-57. Whatever an individual chooses to believe, this is still objectively true. They do need to be more sensible on their budget like everyone else who doesn't print money and put a gun on everyone's head to dictate how much their money is worth and what and who they can and can't trade with.
Russia's per capita income compared to China is nominally higher but their overall available budget is much smaller. 1400 million people compared to 150 million. China's metrics are also scaled down due to purchasing power plus devalued RMB. If RMB is allowed true value, China's economic size (a 1 dimensional measurement) basically doubles along with RMB.
Pouring billions into expanding production lines so Russia can get Su-57 up to some ideal form and mass produce them isn't quite a viable strategy. For potential show downs on borders or proxy wars, they require a well equipped conventional force of certain volume. I believe they have that. It is much less a question of capability or available wealth when it comes to the production of the fighter. If they get some export orders of volume, it may become worth expanding production.
Russia can't employ some sort of T-34 attitude to modern fighters without going broke. No one except the US can. So why engage in a losing fight? China building J-20s cannot match F-35 production rate but it is necessary in case the region goes into war. The Americans can only bring over so many F-35s and F-22s before their airfields and carriers are attacked and destroyed. With Russia, any attack on it could unleash too much of a risky gambit for Europe. Do you want to try your luck with tens of thousands of Russia tanks sweeping through? Or better not poke that hornets nest. If Russia loses, get ready for thousands of nukes. You cannot win so there is no fighting or waging real war on Russia. Playing psyops and trade wars is all they will risk. With China, the western powers don't actually care what happens to Asia or their major allies there because they don't live there and barely have investments around compared to Europe. Which is why China actually does require both a nuclear or WMD MAD guarantee AND have a conventional force that can resist. Until the day China has MAD several times over, the conventional necessity is there, particularly with regards to proxies and smaller conflicts that may arise.
Russia can choose to lower capability and quality by going faster with Su-57 or pour a lot more resources into it. Both would be relatively unnecessary compared to China with J-20.
Its more complexity and independence of industrial supply chains and integrations into single plant.
about 400 Sukhoi Superjet/SU-35 built from same factory in past 10 years. and than add all the experimental planes like Su-70 and Checkmate that need hand built resources. has any factory tried such multifunctional approach?
It is not just titanium but Aluminum and landing that Airbus is depended on them. what do you think going to happen to Airbus once Russians use its own products that it is surplus exporting?.
fftop: Less than 3000 active at most as of now, in whole country. So it may sound atrocious - but by 2020s there is a serious possibility some second-tier nations with will be able to reasonably contend with Russia on land.There are of course, endless soviet tank deposites - but their relevance is diminishing rapidly, 30 years since the fall, after all.
T-72A doesn't count as that much of a tank anymore.
There are of course, endless soviet tank deposites - but their relevance is diminishing rapidly, 30 years since the fall, after all.
T-72A doesn't count as that much of a tank anymore.
wow I thought the Russians still had tanks numbering in the tens of thousands for some reason. Guess not even including all types of infantry and armoured vehicles would the total be over 20K. My mistake. The old "threat" sold to western Europe was something which resembled that form.
FriedRiceNSpice
Captain
Nominally, per capita income is almost equal between China and Russia. However, when it comes to PPP, Russia's per capita income is actually about 40-50% higher than China's. All other things equal, one dollar of Russian defense spending should go further than one dollar of Chinese expenditure.
However, as you have mentioned, China has almost x10 the population. China's overall military spending is 3-5 times higher and also possesses a much larger, more diverse, advanced, and sophisticated manufacturing base, so it would be impossible for Russia to produce and acquire military assets at the same scale and pace as China. Russia can no longer rely on the quantative oriented doctrine that the USSR relied on and has to shift to a qualitative focus.