Russian Su-57 Aircraft Thread (PAK-FA and IAF FGFA)


Breadbox

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Sounds like a complete internal system revamp is 'planned' for 2022.

New engines, avionics, actuators and cockpit.

This sounds like anything but a finished project.
This is honestly sad, the 'maiden flight' of the modernised Su-57 in 2022? It would be late 2020s when it's ready. The development took so long that it's already obsolete and require 'modernisation'. I doubt anyone's going to buy if it isn't being offered at cabbage prices.
 

Anlsvrthng

Senior Member
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IMO, this is a hook price. The Russians are looking to get someone to buy in and then they will jack up the price. They did to the Indians for the FGFA. They did to the Indians for the carrier the Indians bought from the Russians.

Also, for reasons other than the games the Russians have played so far with India as well: the Russians do not, IMO, have a good idea on how much serial production unit costs will be. They produced *ONE* production Su-57, which promptly crashed.

I trust Boeing's cost estimates more than the Russians at this point and I don't trust Boeing at all due to recent events.
The Russians most likely doing not net cost based pricing , but market based method.

It means the price of plane is not the material + labour + amortisation + profit, but the lowest competitor price minus 10%-30 % .

Means they can absorb 20-50% cost overrun without going into red in the books.


The net cost based pricing reserved for the Russian MOD.
 

Anlsvrthng

Senior Member
Registered Member
This is honestly sad, the 'maiden flight' of the modernised Su-57 in 2022? It would be late 2020s when it's ready. The development took so long that it's already obsolete and require 'modernisation'. I doubt anyone's going to buy if it isn't being offered at cabbage prices.
The F-35 program took 20 years to produce marginally usable aircraft,and as it looks like it will take good 25-30 years to develop usable fighter.


The "failure" of the Russians is NOT to make hundreds of useless, outdated in few years fighters during the development / testing phase., before the stabilisation of the design.
 

stannislas

Junior Member
Registered Member
30 million to 50 Million USD per Su-57 is a literal cabbage price for a 4.5-5th Generation fighter, are the Russians really that desperate to sell them? Su-57 have completely different strength and weaknesses compared to the J-20 and I do not see the PLAAF acquiring it as a sign of lacking confidence in the J-20, at such low prices, I almost think acquiring them for evaluation/study and strengthening the relationship with Russia alone would be worth it.

Strength: Engine capable of sustaining super-Cruise. Not sure how reliable and durable is it.
Large internal weapons capable of delivering cruise missiles, could complement the J-20 as a stealthy strike fighter.
Weaknesses: Very questionable stealth

However, there's a significant risk of the Plane not living up to the hype together with other caveats.
in case like this, you should question about the price first, still remember how russian sold India the aircraft carrier with extremely low price and turned into a very pricey collection ...
 

Breadbox

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Is there any consensus regarding the Su-57's stealth capabilities? The claim of 0.1-1.0 m2 RCS is a rather poor showing for a dedicated 5th aircraft, at the same time, Rafale makes the claim of having an RCS of 0.1 to 0.75m2 and capability of reigning free over SAM sites, which I severely doubt given how the Rafale doesn't seem to be specially designed for low observability.
Is Suhoki being humble(doubt) here or is Dassualt bragging to sell their stuff?
 

Julio Ramos

Junior Member
Registered Member
Is Suhoki being humble(doubt) here or is Dassualt bragging to sell their stuff?
The "Spectre" countermeasures system the Rafale uses is considered one of the best.
If the Rafale can reign free (of which I doubt) over SAM sites, it would be for that system and not its stealth.
 

ougoah

Captain
Registered Member
Is there any consensus regarding the Su-57's stealth capabilities? The claim of 0.1-1.0 m2 RCS is a rather poor showing for a dedicated 5th aircraft, at the same time, Rafale makes the claim of having an RCS of 0.1 to 0.75m2 and capability of reigning free over SAM sites, which I severely doubt given how the Rafale doesn't seem to be specially designed for low observability.
Is Suhoki being humble(doubt) here or is Dassualt bragging to sell their stuff?
The 0.1-1m^2 RCS for the Sukhoi seems about right. Sukhoi/ Russian fans suggest the Su-57 is designed to be good enough to close in against other 5th gens as well, achieved through various conventional and electromagnetic/EW means and then win fights once the RCS is good enough to allow the Sukhoi a closer fight and against 4th gens the Su-57 should be superior in every way.

Dassault's claim is marketing. Those RCS numbers are probably for no payloads. Useless. J-10C is probably around that level with attention to detail, saw tooth edges, DSI intake, and CAC's familiarity with minimising RCS now. Even the gigantic, fan exposed J-16 was given a "LO" treatment so CAC and SAC clearly know it's possible and useful to reduce the RCS of legacy 4th gen designs that weren't designed with LO in mind at all.

The "Spectre" countermeasures system the Rafale uses is considered one of the best.
If the Rafale can reign free (of which I doubt) over SAM sites, it would be for that system and not its stealth.
SPECTRA is just a name given to the EW, ECM, RWR, MAW, sensor fusion suite on the Rafale. I'm not aware of anything it has that's totally out of the ordinary except for the alleged ability for "active cancellation" against opposition radar. Very basic stuff the Americans, Chinese, Swedes, and Russians would also probably be using and exploring if it was genuinely effective. Airforces who looked at the Rafale closely did NOT consider SPECTRA a silver bullet solution. Literally no airforce that evaluated the Rafale did. Not even the IAF but the IAF picked it anyway for their MRCA presumably for various political and economic reasons too. IAF never mentioned SPECTRA makes the Rafale a 5th gen fighter but some IAF personalities may have promoted the invincibility of SPECTRA lol.

Consider this, if the Rafale were capable to defeating enemy radars and missiles so convincingly, why was the fighter rejected by so many airforces, yes politics were involved with most of those choices but a VLO fighter that can basically disrupt all missile and ground based radars for 4.5 gen money?!. Why are many airforces not buying Rafale over F-35 and pursuing their own 5th gen projects like Tempest, KFX/IFX, AMCA, AZM? Even France has their own Airbus 5th gen program now. If SPECTRA works this effectively, it gives you a full stealth fighter with the maintenance and payload of a 4.5 gen fighter!
 

Xsizor

Junior Member
Registered Member
The 0.1-1m^2 RCS for the Sukhoi seems about right. Sukhoi/ Russian fans suggest the Su-57 is designed to be good enough to close in against other 5th gens as well, achieved through various conventional and electromagnetic/EW means and then win fights once the RCS is good enough to allow the Sukhoi a closer fight and against 4th gens the Su-57 should be superior in every way.

Dassault's claim is marketing. Those RCS numbers are probably for no payloads. Useless. J-10C is probably around that level with attention to detail, saw tooth edges, DSI intake, and CAC's familiarity with minimising RCS now. Even the gigantic, fan exposed J-16 was given a "LO" treatment so CAC and SAC clearly know it's possible and useful to reduce the RCS of legacy 4th gen designs that weren't designed with LO in mind at all.



SPECTRA is just a name given to the EW, ECM, RWR, MAW, sensor fusion suite on the Rafale. I'm not aware of anything it has that's totally out of the ordinary except for the alleged ability for "active cancellation" against opposition radar. Very basic stuff the Americans, Chinese, Swedes, and Russians would also probably be using and exploring if it was genuinely effective. Airforces who looked at the Rafale closely did NOT consider SPECTRA a silver bullet solution. Literally no airforce that evaluated the Rafale did. Not even the IAF but the IAF picked it anyway for their MRCA presumably for various political and economic reasons too. IAF never mentioned SPECTRA makes the Rafale a 5th gen fighter but some IAF personalities may have promoted the invincibility of SPECTRA lol.

Consider this, if the Rafale were capable to defeating enemy radars and missiles so convincingly, why was the fighter rejected by so many airforces, yes politics were involved with most of those choices but a VLO fighter that can basically disrupt all missile and ground based radars for 4.5 gen money?!. Why are many airforces not buying Rafale over F-35 and pursuing their own 5th gen projects like Tempest, KFX/IFX, AMCA, AZM? Even France has their own Airbus 5th gen program now. If SPECTRA works this effectively, it gives you a full stealth fighter with the maintenance and payload of a 4.5 gen fighter!
Thank you for speaking what I wanted to for long.

Rafale is a great aircraft. Truly one of the best multi role aircrafts. The fact is that France has placed all its bets on Rafale and we should see the entire juice of the French Aviation Industrial complex fueling Rafale to help it cruise through till 2040s.

But, some points remain

1. Dassault does some good sly marketing. Point being the brochure mentioned Rafale's range (1800 miles!). But if one digs deep, that range increase is due to three fuel tanks (massive ones nonetheless 2000 L fuel cap). Such a Rafale would not be able to carry any other significant heavy munitions due to hard point scarcity as well as limited engine thrust.
Which brings us to the second point -

2. M88 is less advanced than EJ200. Infact, M88 has limited growth potential. Wet thrust of 75 kN is compensated for by the lower aircraft weight and that helps achieve the T/W of >1:1. But the aircraft still remains limited by the relatively less powerful Engines.

3. About SPECTRA (ougoah said what I wanted to). Also RBE2. Whatever AESA brewed in US would be superior due to first mover advantage as well as experience (Solid 40 yrs of it ). Captor M of the Anglo-German could be more capable too.

4. Technological limitation due to inadequate funding. This is the most important issue limiting Rafale. The fact is France has to fund all of these and more and isn't doing well in that regard. Technological development doesn't happen without Euros flowing.

5. Rafale isn't Stealth aircraft. (Unless you plan to fly Rafale clean and do "Divine Wind" style Suicide bombing.) If Rafale, with semi exposed engine fan and split intake vane is stealth then J-10 must be 5.5 Generation. (Serpentine inlet + DSI).

5. India choosing to go France over FGFA is more political than what is commonly understood. Dassault must be commended for the solid marketing. Rafale has been hyped to some great heights. (Not complaining though, it's a good aircraft. It looks hot too ;)

What I was surprised at was the Indian quick purchase of the expensive Hammer AG munitions post Galwan clash. That was really something else. I really hope Indians in the thread do see the bigger picture of it all. I know they realize it.

Pardon me for the Dassault "bashing" in FGFA thread but FGFA and it's current predicament is due to Russia's degrading Comprehensive National Capabilities. (Not Aviation Technology capabilities). The Russians do understand that fact but my confusion is why the Russians afix the role of "Defeating 5th gens" on FGFA.

As it indeed goes, whoever sees first kills first. The Russians haven't still given us a good idea of how the Su57 will be able to gain an upper hand over F22 or even F35.
 

SteelBird

Major
@Xsizor

Do you think the SU-57 is a worthwhile addition to China's fleet?
I remember back to some time ago when we were argueing if China would induct Su-35. No body agreed that except one banned idiot. Since China bought the Su-35 out of our surprise, it won't be surprise anymore if China eventually add Su-57 to its fleet.
 

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