russian analysis of PLA

ravenshield936

Banned Idiot
The European nations and the EU have been spending more money on its military than China ever since Europeans accidentally discovered the American continent. For many centuries, Europe has been importing various resources from around the world at a much, much higher rate than China. Europe and the Turkish Empire have been losing their empires and colonies after WW1 and WW2. American capitalism replaced Turkey's Middle Eastern empire and replaced Europe's international empire.

China is a lot less experienced and a lot less funded in terms of types of resources and quantity of resources when compared to Europe and America.

Russia's per capita wealth is much greater than China's, and Russia is more experienced in modern science than China. However, Russia has social, political, and economic problems crippling its development.

in fact china has only around barely 100 years of experience in r&d its own weapons systems after the industrial age. we're excluding the ancient warfare as those dont really count, since the infrastructures were actually different. with that said, the real r&d of military industries began post 1949
with that said, it's not a lot of years, and i guess we'll really see more indigenous technology in the latter 50 years
 

ravenshield936

Banned Idiot
The author needs to read The Art of War - deception is already 80% of the war won, this author might very well be helping the PLA !

If you look at the USSR during the Cold War, it really wasn't a superpower per say.

To be a superpower you have to satified these three criterias which the USA currently holds:

1. Ecomonic might
2. Military Might
3. Cultural influences

The USSR only approached distantly close to #2, the other two were no where close ! China on the other hand is quickly approaching exceeding all three of these criterias. The cultural influences is the hardest of these for China, I wouldn't be surprise when Beijing will be gobbling up Hollywood movie studios, software and gaming companies !

that'll be awesome
i cant stand all those movies with asian stereotypes
anyways
and no don't let him read the art of war
why will we want to give him something good?

never interrupt an enemy when he's making a mistake - patton or somebody
 

Quickie

Colonel
This goes to show that anytime the Chinese designers hire some Russian consultants for some technical services, these Russian analysts will come back with the claim that the Russians are the ones who should be given all the credit for the whole project. Nevermind that those services are purely just for the generation of technical data and has nothing to do with actual design decisions.
 

HKSDU

Junior Member
Since I follow ground equipment more then anything else, and tphuang has covered all other area of aspect. I'll point out the other flaws, of this jokers post.

By Mikhail Barabanov
After the generous flow of military equipment from Moscow ended abruptly in 1961, the Chinese army was stuck with old Soviet technology dating back to the 1950s. The obsolete MiG-19 Farmer fighter jets manufactured under a Soviet license (Chinese designation J-6) remained the backbone of the Chinese fighter fleet. The adoption of the early versions of the MiG-21 Fishbed (J-7) fighter was excruciatingly slow and painful. The bulk of the bomber fleet was made of the Il-28 (H-5) Beagle aircraft, plus a few long-range Tu-16 (H-6) Badger bombers. The piston-engine Mi-4 (Z-5) Hound remained the main Chinese helicopter, the T-54 (designated in China as the T-59) the main battle tank, and the S-75 (HQ-2) the main SAM system.

* Chinese army uses modern polymer housing rifles, firing domestic small high velocity rounds, significant step away from the Soviet stamped steel rifles, with machine gun rounds.

* Russia is largely based and influenced with Soviet equipment. They sold more advanced machinery systems to other nations, then which they had themselves. Still all Russian systems are upgrades of handed down Soviet technology.

By Mikhail Barabanov
China’s latest artillery systems are licensed and slightly modified versions of Russian designs - and even the modifications themselves were probably made by Russian designers. That includes the fighting compartment of the 155 mm PLZ-05 self-propelled howitzer (a version of the Russian 2S19M1 Msta-S), the 120mm PLL-05 self-propelled gun-mortar (2S23 Nona-SVK), and PHL-05, a 300mm MLRS based on the Russian 9K58 Smerch system. China has also licensed the Krasnopol guided artillery projectiles, the Basnya, Refleks-M and Bastion tank-launched anti-tank guided missile systems, and the RPO-A rocket infantry flame-thrower. And the latest Chinese powered chassis are obvious licensed clones of the MAZ chassis.
technical expertise. Once the final deliveries are made in 2010 under the S-300PMU2 contract, exports to China can be expected to shrink even further. Beijing has also chosen not to continue the licensed assembly of the Su-27 fighter jets.

The air defenses of the parts of the country not covered by the Russian-made S-300PMU1/2 systems are a joke. Battlefield air defense also remains woefully inadequate.

Finally, the bulk of the Army’s equipment remains obsolete. The handful of new vehicles of each type trotted out in front of Mao’s mausoleum do not change the bigger picture. Fewer than 300-350 of the latest Type 99 main battle tank have been built over the past decade. In order to be able to replace the ancient T-59’s, which still make up the bulk of the fleet, China has been forced to maintain production of the cheap, simplified and painfully obsolete Type 96. This kind of approach - i.e. producing a few modern-looking showcase pieces while the bulk of the output is made up of spruced-up old junk - exemplifies the current state of affairs in China’s defense industry. Even the Chengdu facility, which builds the latest J-10 fighters, also continues to churn out the J-7G model, a slightly updated version of the venerable MiG-21.

Meanwhile, the Type 99 tank is a fine example of the true level of Chinese military technology. It traces its lineage to Type 90, which is itself a heavily upgraded clone of the old T-72. Chinese military web sites and forums, as well as some Western observers who take all the patriotic verbiage at face value, sing the praises of Type 99. They describe it as world-class; some even go as far as to suggest that it outclasses the Russian T-90A.

The truth is, the armor system of the latest and greatest Chinese tank’s turret looks nothing short of ugly. Due to poor design choices, the thickness of the armor at the 30-35 degrees angle is a mere 350mm, whereas the figure for the latest Soviet/Russian tanks is about 600mm from all angles. Roof armor at the front is also weak, and the tank has inherited the weakness of the porthole and hatch areas from the old Soviet designs. The dimensions of the Type 99 turret make any substantial improvements in its built-in protection system all but impossible - witness the latest modification, Type 99A1. Meanwhile, the decision to use the powerful but bulky German MTU diesel engine forced the Chinese designers to add an extra meter to the tank’s length, bringing its weight to 54 metric tons despite the sacrifices made in armor strength. (Besides, the use of imported engines - or their assembly from imported components - seems to be the key reason why so few of the Type 99’s have been built so far.) So compared to the latest Russian designs, Type 99 is a bulkier tank with weaker armor, handicapped by poor engineering. The Chinese rely too much on superficial mechanical copying of individual design elements, which often do not fit together very well. This copying does not translate into any advantages compared to the original foreign designs, and in many cases leads to unexpected problems. Compared to the vast experience of Soviet/Russian tank designers, the Chinese are only making their first steps - and it really shows.

* National coverage? Why would China need coverage in the Gobi Desert, borders of Mt Everest?? Why would you place million dollar airdefence assets where no one is gonna strike their due to the conditions??

* Self-propelled howitzer if they are so called basically copies of the Russians, then why does Saudi Arabia place the order for China instead of Russia. As Saudi Arabia is extremely wealthy they could've bought any other system yet they chose China. If Saudi Arabia chose China then, it wouldn't of been a simply copy and paste with modifications.

* The last mass produced G variant of the Type 96, is by no means painfully obsolete. And FYI try driving a 50-60 tonne tank through Southern part of China, it'll bog in the soft soild before getting any further inland. Type 99 a heavey upgraded T-72, buddy get your eyes checked. For starters the turret are different moreso towards German engineering design, defence mechanism, gear box, cannon, loader, target acquisition all different. Bulkier tank, gives the crew a larger workspace, Soviet tanks are known for cramp quarters, and mentally disable their crew over the long run.

* T-72 are not to be glorified nor Russian/Soviets tanks. Pit up against the NATO force tanks, mostly Abraham and Challenger, basically the results showed on how good they were.

* Thicker doesn't mean better. Reactive armour is equiavalent to ~1100mm of steel, yet its way thinner then ~1100mm.
 
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Roger604

Senior Member
There is a big difference between just coming up with a concept or technology demonstrator versus actually mass producing a weapon system.

China took concepts that were never fully implemented by the Russians and turned them into reality. In the meantime, not only has Russia not made anything significant since end of Cold War, it's no longer capable of coming up with innovative designs and concepts either!

In any case, the 50th anniversary parade marked the final fruition of late Cold War designs that have been adopted and implemented by China. Now the newest Chinese weapon systems are based on western weapon systems from the 1990's and beyond.

Even in terms of strategic arms, China is pretty much on par with Russia. China has the capability to quickly manufacture additional warheads and missiles if it feels threatened. In today's world there simply isn't such a need to have a massive arsenal on hair trigger alert. China will also have a BMD in 5 years.

Meanwhile, Russian strategic arms are decades old and probably don't work. They don't have any money or any ideas to replace them.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Guys... I believe we are all underestimating the Russian. They have a strong industrial background and infrastructure, although at this time all those are in slump because of the financial difficulties the country had runs into after the breakup of Soviet Union. And Russia also has the technical know how to get things done.

Yes... we are not seeing much these days and the Russian had gone pretty quiet... but please remember that they have a very valuable resource that could still put them back in their position when they use this resource well. And that resource is - OIL.

The Russian has OIL. and if their government is very good (I believe Putin is), he could still pull Russia out of the slump. And once out... you will be expected to see Russia fly... at a much quicker pace than most other nations around her.

China of course had came out of the shadow of old Soviet Union... many of her doctrines had also been revised, modified or changed entirely, and many of her new equipment and weaponries are based on both Western and Russian designs, so we are actually seeing a new system overall.

But from all that I have read this far... it seemed that we are bashing the Russian up because of some authors that didn't know what he is writing about. But lets just put the blame on that author and not on the country. Because as explained... Russia is still not dead yet... and there are high chance of her jumping up to become number 2 again - militarily and economically.
 

RedMercury

Junior Member
Got this comparison of turret armor depth at angles from WAB (I think) a few years ago from a Russian poster.

Top is purported ZTZ-99 turret, bottom is T-90 turret. Projections are at 0, 30 and 60 degrees (I think).



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So at 30 degrees, ZTZ-99 depth is not much worse--in areas under frontal armor protection--than at 0 degrees. I suspect the depth figure the article asserts may be an average depth.

In contrast, the Soviet design philosophy of using tanks as deep penetration/attack assets (not for killing tanks, that's artillery's job; in comparison, Western tanks during the Cold war emphasized more defensive roles, fighting against tanks) means that good protection at larger angles was desired, hence the particular shape and decent coverage even at 60 degrees. Western tanks tend to emphasize 0 degree protection, with long turrets that have small frontal cross-section. Soviet tanks were designed to be well-protected across a wider arc, hence the rounder turrets.

So the claim that current gen Chinese MBT are lightly armored is from the Soviet doctrinal perspective, and these figures illustrate how Chinese MBT philosophy is more like Western philosophy than Soviet. Probably because what kept Chinese leaders awake at night during the 70s was dozens of divisions of Soviet armor rolling through the perfect tank terrain of inner Mongolia.

As to the rest of the article, many of the assertions are true, at least partially; some were true in the past but are now outdated; some are sloppy exaggerations.
 

victtodd

New Member
Guys... I believe we are all underestimating the Russian. They have a strong industrial background and infrastructure, although at this time all those are in slump because of the financial difficulties the country had runs into after the breakup of Soviet Union. And Russia also has the technical know how to get things done.

Yes... we are not seeing much these days and the Russian had gone pretty quiet... but please remember that they have a very valuable resource that could still put them back in their position when they use this resource well. And that resource is - OIL.

The Russian has OIL. and if their government is very good (I believe Putin is), he could still pull Russia out of the slump. And once out... you will be expected to see Russia fly... at a much quicker pace than most other nations around her.

China of course had came out of the shadow of old Soviet Union... many of her doctrines had also been revised, modified or changed entirely, and many of her new equipment and weaponries are based on both Western and Russian designs, so we are actually seeing a new system overall.

But from all that I have read this far... it seemed that we are bashing the Russian up because of some authors that didn't know what he is writing about. But lets just put the blame on that author and not on the country. Because as explained... Russia is still not dead yet... and there are high chance of her jumping up to become number 2 again - militarily and economically.

The problem with russian is that its military R&D is severely impaired and its economic innovation is all but dead. The only strong suit of Russia's economy is its energy sector, which is stagnating at best. An economy without a vibrant R&D stands no chance of rising to the top ranks in the world. Thanks to Russia's vast resources in mineral, gas and oil, it will become richer, but a leading economy? Not a long shot.
That doesn't even count in other debilitating factors such as scandalous corruption, dwindling population, strained relations with US and Europe.
 
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