Russia Vs Georgia..a widening crisis!


Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
The Georgian Army is still basically a conscript force, as of course is the Russian Army; but "conscript" versus "volunteer" comparisons can be misleading, it's the quality of leadership, discipline, and training that is the basis of "professionalism". Conscript" and "Volunteer" do not automatically translate into inferior and superior, respectively. It takes many months of recruit/basic training (ie. for Infantry, at least 5 or 6 - the Russians give theirs only 30 days) just to get a recruit properly ready for service in a unit, and then it still takes two or three years for a simple soldier to fully master his trade; NCOs and officers take many years to mature. Even so, few Armies really get combined-arms warfare right, especially at the tactical level. Many Armies figure on at least 4 months of Unit- and Formation-level training to reach basic competency in combined-arms operations, preferably more; really, they need two or even three times amount of time just to get the basics down pat, never mind really become masters of combined-arms warfare. The 58th Army had gotten at least 3 or 4 months before war broke out, and the Georgians next to none. Moreover, the Russians, being rather clever in their own way, try to do an end-run around the difficulties of achieving tactical mastery by concentrating on the operational level of war and just going for the bare-bones lowest-common denominator necessities at the tactical level; it worked against the tactically superior Germans in WWII, and they've emphasized it ever since.

Both Armies were still essentially Soviet in substance as well as form, with rigid command and control, discouragement of personal initiative, and very formal control of information. The Soviet system also tries to create tactical predictability through the simplest tactics executed by the simplest means in order to produce critical mass multiplied by velocity; it is at the operational level of war, where all ways and means (tactics, intelligence, psychological/information warfare, special operations, etc.) are brought together to achieve the political object, that the Soviet system excells. Western Armies try to excell at the tactical level, but have tended to have some trouble at the operational level; and when they do get it right, they tend to copy off the Russian approach (the German approach to operational art has been too difficult for most Western Armies to really emulate).

The Russian 58th Army also has a fair bit of warfighting experience, both conventional and unconventional, mainly in Chechnya. It has also enjoyed being able to engage in large-scale conventional warfare exercises starting back in the Spring; the Georgians have received comparatively little training (and much of it COIN-related for use in both Iraq and against Chechen guerrillas at home), perhaps aside from some combat support and SF units. Simply put, the Russians were more or less ready for war and the Georgians weren't. But as Utelore notes, the Georgians managed to not only withdraw the bulk of their force to the vicinity of Tblisi after having been defeated in and around Tshkavili, but indeed to get probably most of their heavy stuff (armour and artillery) out as well. The Russians didn't advance on Tbilisi for a reason, even though their ultimate objective was the removal of the present Georgian Government. We can argue over and speculate on whether or not Moscow considered the risks (military, political, etc.) involved in militarily overthrowing the Georgian Government to be too high, or not, but the only thing materially stopping them was the withdrawn and re-grouped Georgian Army around Tblisi. Given that the Russians continue to demand the removal of the present Georgian Government (and not without some justification given the events in South Ossetia), and are even threatening to occupy the Adjara capital of Batumi (and the last Georgian "major" entry port for bulk supplies), it seems only a matter of time before the Georgian Government is throttled one way or the other. Unless the US or NATO really make this a test of wills with the Russians a la Berlin 1948 or 1961.
 

LoCLai

New Member
Registered Member
uterlore, where did you get all these information? I found it disturbing to hear all those things that u have said. The picture I got from your info is that the Georgian army was not made up of humans but robots. You see, your claims on the Georgian army sounds like they are all being assumbled in the factory. You scares me. Now you claim that the Georgian Army can take on the Russian Army. Next time, you might claim that Georgian Army can take over the world.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
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Cheney visit: U.S. treads tightrope on Georgia aid
The Bush administration announces $1 billion in aid but no military assistance.
By Howard LaFranchi | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

from the September 5, 2008 edition

Washington - The Bush administration's announcement of $1 billion in humanitarian and economic aid – but no military assistance – to Georgia in the wake of its war with Russia suggests the delicate balancing act the United States will attempt as it confronts the repercussions of a newly assertive Russia.
 

Roger604

Senior Member
Right now, the Russians already have Georgia proper cornered appropriately and under indirect control.

The Russians are not going to allow anybody to re-arm Georgia. It would simply lead the Russians to finish off Tblisi altogether.

The only thing that could possibly stop them is a full blow military intervention from a foreign power. But it's quite obvious now that "the cavalry" is not coming. Georgia is indefensible, and the front line moves back westward.
 

flyzies

Junior Member
You really have to wonder how much more empty rhetoric is in this guy...

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Georgian president vows to reclaim 2 provinces

TBILISI, Georgia (AP) — On the eve of a European Union shuttle mission to convince Russia to pull its troops back to prewar positions, Georgia's president vowed Sunday to regain control of two breakaway provinces with the help of "the rest of the world."

President Mikhail Saakashvili said the West would help his country regain control of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the separatist regions of Georgia recognized as independent nations by Moscow last month.

"Our territorial integrity will be restored, I am more convinced of this than ever," Saakashvili said in a televised appearance. "This will not be an easy process, but now this is a process between an irate Russia and the rest of the world."

"Our goal is the return of our territory and the peaceful unification of Georgia," he said.
 

Mr T

Senior Member
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Russian troops have begun withdrawing from the Georgian port of Poti on the country's Black Sea coast, reports say. Trucks and armoured vehicles had left the town and other bases in western Georgia and were seen heading towards the separatist territory of Abkhazia.

Russia has agreed to an EU-backed truce requiring it to withdraw troops from bases inside the undisputed territory of Georgia. The bases were set up after a five-day war with Georgia in August. Russian troops are expected to remain in the disputed territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Moscow says it has established formal diplomatic ties with the administrations in the two regions, following its "irrevocable" decision to recognise them as independent last month. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said earlier this week that Moscow needed to maintain a presence in the regions to ensure security.

Early on Saturday, Russian troops stationed at two bases in Poti were seen packing their belongings into vehicles that then set off along the road towards Abkhazia. Georgian interior ministry official Shota Utiashvili said Russia had "withdrawn completely from Poti", the Associated Press news agency reports. Much of the Georgian port's naval infrastructure had been destroyed by the Russian military during the fighting.

The Russians were required to withdraw from Poti and from the nearby town of Senaki by Monday, under the terms of a ceasefire deal brokered earlier this week by the EU. The deal also requires the Russians to complete a full withdrawal from all bases on Georgian territory - except for South Ossetia and Abkhazia - following the planned deployment of EU monitors to the area by 1 October. Moscow later clashed with the EU over the terms of the deal, saying it had not given EU monitors the right to enter Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The two regions have had de facto independence since a civil war in the early 1990s, and Moscow has strongly backed their breakaway governments.

Fighting between Russia and Georgia began on 7 August after the Georgian military tried to retake the breakaway region of South Ossetia by force. Russian forces launched a counter-attack and the conflict ended with the ejection of Georgian troops from both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Hundreds of people were killed in the fighting and some 200,000 were displaced - most of them Georgians. Russian forces also set up several bases on Georgian territory outside the separatist regions, in so-called "buffer zones" - a move criticised by Georgia and the EU as a violation of an earlier ceasefire deal.
 

lcortez

New Member
Dont feel that Georgia will make the same mistake again,the next leader will be a Russian puppet!:)
Also bear in mind that by the time the Georgian forces get back on there feet,Putin will most likely be back in power,with Russian forces further along in their modernisation programme,with all the inherent implications:)
 

flyzies

Junior Member
From Georgia's former defence minister under Saakashvili, who now is apparently living in France.

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Saakashvili "planned S. Ossetia invasion" :ex-minister

PARIS (Reuters) - Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili had long planned a military strike to seize back the breakaway region of South Ossetia but executed it poorly, making it easy for Russia to retaliate, Saakashvili's former defence minister said.

Irakly Okruashvili, Georgia's leading political exile, said in a weekend interview in Paris that the United States was partly to blame for the war, having failed to check the ambitions of what he called a man with democratic failings.

Saakashvili's days as president were now numbered, he said.

The former defence minister's remarks are significant because Saakashvili has always maintained Russia started the war by invading his country. The Georgian president said he handed EU leaders last week "very strong proof" that Moscow was to blame, though he did not give details.

But Okruashvili, a close Saakashvili ally who served as defence minister from 2004 to 2006, said he and the president worked together on military plans to invade South Ossetia and a second breakaway region on the Black Sea coast, Abkhazia.

"Abkhazia was our strategic priority, but we drew up military plans in 2005 for taking both Abkhazia and South Ossetia as well," Okruashvili said.

There was no immediate reaction from Saakashvili's officials to his remarks.

While in office, Okruashvili was an outspoken hawk, overseeing a military buildup and calling for Georgia to take back South Ossetia -- his birthplace -- by force.

But in the interview he fiercely criticized Saakashvili's handling of the war, which he said was launched in haste, without diplomatic support and failed to take account of a build-up of Russian forces in the region.

TWO-PRONGED OPERATION

"The original plans called for a two-pronged operation entering South Ossetia, taking Tskhinvali, the Roki Tunnel and Java," he said, referring respectively to the regional capital, the main border crossing between Russia and the rebel region, and another key town.

"Saakashvili's offensive only aimed at taking Tskhinvali, because he thought the U.S. would block a Russian reaction through diplomatic channels."

"But when the U.S. reaction turned out to be non-existent, Saakashvili then moved troops toward the Roki tunnel, only to be outmaneuvered by the Russians," he said.

Russia responded to the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali by pouring troops and tanks through the Roki tunnel into South Ossetia, routing the Georgian army. Okruashvili said that outcome was inevitable.

"After 2006 we didn't have the possibility for success by military means... the Russians had repositioned and improved their military infrastructure in the North Caucuses, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia -- and obviously they did it for us."

Okruashvili said the Georgian president could have ordered his army to defend several key towns from the Russians but "let the Russians in to avoid criticism and appear more of a victim".

Washington had always made clear to the Georgian leadership that it would not support an invasion, Okruashvili added.

"When we met President Bush in May 2005, we were told directly: don't involve yourself in a military confrontation. We won't be able to help you militarily."


Okruashvili, 34, fled to Europe in 2007 after imprisonment in Georgia, where he faced corruption charges he denied, saying they were intended to punish him for criticizing the president.

In March, a Georgian court sentenced him to 11 years in prison in absentia, but he was granted asylum in France where last week a court rejected Tbilisi's extradition request.

Okruashvili said Washington was partly to blame for the war because it uncritically supported Saakashvili despite his growing authoritarianism.

"There were no checks and balances. The institutions he created all revolved around him. Lack of criticism from the U.S. allowed him to go too far," he said.

Okruashvili said the Georgian president should now resign or face possible prosecution for ordering the war and for signing a "disgraceful" EU-brokered ceasefire plan which he said gave Russia a much stronger claim on the two rebel regions.

"(Saakashvili) must be held accountable and resign. If he steps down, he shouldn't be prosecuted. But if he doesn't it will lead to criminal charges against him," Okruashvili said.

Propelled to the forefront of the opposition when the charges brought against him helped spark mass demonstrations in Tbilisi, Okruashvili said he hoped the coming anniversary of those protests would rally the president's critics.

"November 7th will be a test. We'll see how much the opposition is able to mobilize," he said.

In the French capital since January, Okruashvili plans to come back to his homeland soon.

"I will return within a year, even if it means risking jail. But in the meantime I will try to create the right conditions. Saakashvili's days are numbered."
 

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