Russia Vs Georgia..a widening crisis!

Re: Georgia Attacks South Ossetia, War With Russia Looms

Finn McCool said:

As for the T-72: I will wait for more info, but at this point I'm leaning towards negative. Georgian T-72s suffered quite a few casualties at the hands of the South Ossetians, and they were only armed with RPGs. The reactive armour did little, apparently.

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From internet sources, Russian RPG round with tandem warhead can defeat ERA and penetrate 500mm-750mm RHA armor, versus export quality T-72's had 250mm-400mm RHA rated armor depending on location (without ERA). I'd assume the Russians supplied the local militia with anti-tank RPG rounds.

During the Chechnya conflict, the Chechen rebels had to fire 7-8 RPG rounds to disable a single T-72. But they only had access to older RPG ammunition and not the newer anti-tank stuff.

I'm also surprised to see Russian T-62's being deployed. Perhaps these are from a frontier guard division? Even by Russian standards these are pretty old.

There's also some confusion as to who owns what tank. Both Russia and Georgia use T-72AV with ERA upgrade, so it's kinda hard to ID owner when it's a burning hulk. Also, some tanks were probably captured and put back into service by the other side. I've seen several pictures of abandoned Georgian T-72's being put into service by Ossetian forces.



I also read a few speculations:

1) Russian tankers only carry ammo in the autoloader, and no spare rounds. So when hit it'd improve their survival chance. Georgian tankers didn't do this and their destroyed tanks are more likely to have flipped turrets.

2) Tanks destroyed from the top & look like a burning hulk are more likely to be from air strike or artillery hit, versus those with turret intact is more likely from a RPG or ATGM penetrating the turret ring or sides.


Is this an upgraded T-80? Does anyone have a confirmed T-80 MBT photo in current conflict zone?

Russia Fired SS-21 Ballistic Missiles at the Republic of Georgia.

WASHINGTON, Aug 14, 2008 /PRNewswire-USNewswire via COMTEX/

Riki Ellison, President of the Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance ( ), issued the following statements about the situation in Europe concerning Russia, Poland and the Republic of Georgia. "Over the last few days Russia has fired over two dozen SS-21 Ballistic Short Range Missiles into the country of Georgia, integrating ballistic missile strikes with their conventional military forces.



Pictures of SS-21 pieces in Georgia:





I had heard on Monday that SS-21 luanchers had been moved into the break-away province in northern Georgia, but this is the first official report I have seen of them actually having been fired.

Re: Georgia Attacks South Ossetia, War With Russia Looms

Russian T-80U MBT:



It's greatly improved over the T-72 in many areas. It can also fire the 9M9119 Refleks ATGM.

Source: army-technology.com

Re: Russia Fired SS-21 Ballistic Missiles at the Republic of Georgia.

Supposedly the Russians have also placed some SSMs in the hands of South Ossetian troops, who have fired off two of their own. How the South Ossetians have come by the technical expertise and logistical resources required to engage in missile warfare must make, I would imagine, for a fascinating - if unsurprisingly brief - read.

Perhaps the Russians intend to continue turning the screws on the Georgians with the use - or the continued threat thereof - of our old friend, SS-21.:nono: I guess we should be grateful that it's not SS-21's predecessor, the SS-20 (remember those beauties, Jeff?)

Re: Georgia Attacks South Ossetia, War With Russia Looms

From today's edition of :

Late in the evening of August 7, a heavy mortar bombardment of Georgian villages near the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali provoked Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili to order a major assault. The night attack by Georgian troops outfitted with Western-made night-vision equipment flushed the Ossetian fighters out and Tskhinvali was overrun in the morning. To stop the Georgian offensive thousands of Russian troops with hundreds of pieces of armor invaded through the Roki tunnel and rushed forward.

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This seems to dovetail reasonably well with this preliminary analysis at the Foreign Policy Research Institute:

, by Felix K. Chang (FPRI, 13 August, 2008):

No doubt Russia’s military action in Georgia will prompt many countries to view Moscow in a sharper light, from the capitals of Europe to Beijing and Tokyo. However the world eventually interprets Russia’s intervention in Georgia’s civil conflict—whether as a “humanitarian effort” as Moscow portrays or as a “full scale invasion” as Tbilisi portrays—it does demonstrate the Russian military’s renewed ability to prosecute a relatively complex, high-intensity combined arms operation. Still, the evidently high state of readiness of such a broad array of Russian military units across all three services raises more questions about Moscow’s intentions and planning prior to the outbreak of hostilities.

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Not exactly surprising, but intriguing nonetheless. And since this isn't even over (at least in the immediate, military, sense), things can still get even more interesting.

Re: Russia Fired SS-21 Ballistic Missiles at the Republic of Georgia.

Norfolk said:

Supposedly the Russians have also placed some SSMs in the hands of South Ossetian troops, who have fired off two of their own. How the South Ossetians have come by the technical expertise and logistical resources required to engage in missile warfare must make, I would imagine, for a fascinating - if unsurprisingly brief - read.

Perhaps the Russians intend to continue turning the screws on the Georgians with the use - or the continued threat thereof - of our old friend, SS-21.:nono: I guess we should be grateful that it's not SS-21's predecessor, the SS-20 (remember those beauties, Jeff?)

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Oh yes. Started deploying in 1976 and were deployed well into the 80s, with that Mod 3 beasty coming in late in the game.

The INF treaty in 1988 eliminated them after the US deployed the Pershings into Europe. I believe the last of the SS-20s were destroyed in the early 1990s.

Re: Russia Fired SS-21 Ballistic Missiles at the Republic of Georgia.

wow, the things just keep getting worse for the Georgians. Would I be the only here who thinks the Russians are using some of their weapons to attract customers?

Re: Russia Fired SS-21 Ballistic Missiles at the Republic of Georgia.

tphuang said:

wow, the things just keep getting worse for the Georgians. Would I be the only here who thinks the Russians are using some of their weapons to attract customers?

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I believe most of the shots were fired on Monday and Tuesday. I do not believe any were fired on Wednesday and certainly none have been, to my knowledge fired today.

No doubt Russian buyers will be very interested in the performance of their weapons in this conflict. Though it look like a number of SU-25s were however shot down, and at leat one TU-22. 4 total by Russian count, 10 total by Georgian.

Also, a number of armored vehicles including tanks, were lost on both sides, more on the Georgian side naturally because of the overwhelming numbers and air superiority.

Re: Georgia Attacks South Ossetia, War With Russia Looms

Jeff Head said:

Well, US aircraft, troops, and naval units will all particiapte in the "humanitarian" effort in Georgia. IMHO, their presence there will much more likely ensure that the fighting stops because I do not believe Russia wants a war with the US.

That presence will also bolster Georgian and Ukrainian feelings towards the US.

I expect what Russia did in Georgia is much more likely to lead to Ukraine and perhaps Gerogia being admitted into NATO...but we shall see on that. Certainly, as we are already seeing, you will see nations like Poland coming much closr to the US and basing of US military units and missile shields in their countries.

I believe Russia's attempts to send a blunt message to these former satellites is going to backfire in a big way...and from talking to people I know in Georgia, and friends I have who have relatives there, I believe in the next election in Georgia, if the figthing indeed ends, if Russia does not turn around and make a grab for Tiblisis (which at this point will be very difficult for them to do politically), and with a US presence there, that you will see Saakashvili win an overwhelming re-election.

I expect Georgia will also be replacing much of their losses with much newer, more state of the art, western military equipment. I believe that will be another unintended consequence of this action.

But we shall see.

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In the end, I think some other anti-Russian gov't will take over. Saakashvili should be gone after such a bone-headed move. But the anti-Russian sentiment will run high, so the next elected leader will not be any closer to the Russians. As for Geogia joining NATO, is it really worth it to admit such an unstable country? Do you really want to get in a war with Russia over Georgia? I certainly don't want to want my tax money go into this cause.

Re: Russia Fired SS-21 Ballistic Missiles at the Republic of Georgia.

It's not looking good for the T-72 either, which has no choice but everything to lose in this conflict with all those photos and videos of burning or destroyed T-72s once again.