Russia sells S-400 systems to China


Jeff Head

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
No confirmation as of yet from any official in either government.

Given the history of these rumors and statements out of Russia...I will wait for that type of confirmation (and specifically from China) before I begin to believe that a deal has actually been struck.

If that ever happens (and I believe its a pretty big "if"), then it will probably be years later before actual equipment is delivered and deployed. At that point we will KNOW that the deal was made, and has gone through.

In today's worlds (as so many other deals have shown us over the years), that is truly the only time you know it is a done deal.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
I think Russia is still on the cutting edge of radar technology and so is their rocket science. They had been able to introduce game changing technologies in both fields and there is no reason to doubt they still can.

You are right 10 years ago, but not now in 2015 .. many indications show Chinese is already at par or even better than the Russian in radar and rocket tech ... perhaps only engine and nuke sub still better than China even marginally
 

Ultra

Junior Member
You are right 10 years ago, but not now in 2015 .. many indications show Chinese is already at par or even better than the Russian in radar and rocket tech ... perhaps only engine and nuke sub still better than China even marginally


Hmmmm I wouldn't say that. The Russian rocket tech is still decades ahead of Chinese as can be seen in their super heavy lift rocket Energia (back in 1987!) which China still has no equivalent - the closest is the Long March 9 which its current status is still "under study" (not even in development) - it will be another decade at very least before we will see it in production - that will make Chinese about as behind as 40 years (2027?) !!

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Also it can be seen in the difference of missile tech - the best BVR missile China has in its inventory is the PL-12 which has an operational range of 70~100 km; while the Russian has Novator K-100 (KS–172/KS-172S-1) with operational range of 300~400km; there is also the Vympel R-37 with an operational range of 150~398 km - again, no Chinese equivalent.

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And also, as the logic would dictate - if Chinese is really ahead of Russian on the radar and rocket tech, why are they still buying S-400 from Russia then?
 

Ultra

Junior Member
Russia doesn't even have a DF-21D or the WU-14 HGV programs equivalent.

Obviously, you never heard of R-27K ;)

R-27K
The 4K18 was a
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intermediate-range ballistic anti-ship missile (also known as R-27K, where "K" stands for Korabelnaya which means "ship-related") NATO SS-NX-13. Initial submarine testing began on 9 December 1972 on board the K-102, a project 605 class submarine. Test firings were carried out between 11 September and 4 December 1973. Following the initial trials, the K-102 continued making trial launches with both the R-27 and the R-27K, until it was accepted for service on 15 August 1975.


Using external targeting data, the R-27K/SS-NX-13 would have been launched underwater to a range of between 350-400 nm (650–740 km), covering a "footprint" of 27 nm (50 km). The Maneuvering Re-Entry vehicle (MaRV) would then home in on the target with a CEP of 400 yards (370 m). Warhead yield was between 0.5-1 Mt.


The R-27K / SS-NX-13 was the world's first Anti Ship Ballistic Missile however it never became operational, since every launch tube used for the R-27K counted as a strategic missile in the SALT agreement, and they were considered more important."



Now, the Russian HGV is another matter I am more or less unfamiliar with - although almost every report about Chinese Wu-14 said that China is the THIRD country behind US and Russia to have tested HGV (above speed of Mach 10) technology - although I just can't seem to find any reference to the said Russian HGV anywhere on internet.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Having heavier rocket not necessarily better technology ... I don't think Russian rocket technology is much better (decades) than the Chinese.

quote from Ultra
"And also, as the logic would dictate - if Chinese is really ahead of Russian on the radar and rocket tech, why are they still buying S-400 from Russia then?"

Thats why I don't believe China would buy S-400, I don't see any need
 

Ultra

Junior Member
Having heavier rocket not necessarily better technology ... I don't think Russian rocket technology is much better (decades) than the Chinese.

quote from Ultra
"And also, as the logic would dictate - if Chinese is really ahead of Russian on the radar and rocket tech, why are they still buying S-400 from Russia then?"

Thats why I don't believe China would buy S-400, I don't see any need


Having heavier lift rocket is an indication of better technology - every nation is striving for heavier lift rocket is an indication of this. Even China is planning for Long March 9 which is a 130,000 kg to LEO class rocket comparable to the SLS, Saturn V and Energia.

Let's put it this way - If it isn't such a technological hurdle as you say it is - then China shouldn't have problem manufacturing them right now right? Just make a larger rocket and put more fuel in it and it should fly right? ;) The truth is, it doesn't work that way. As the rocket gets heavier the need to make the rocket lighter and yet still sturdy enough to withstand the launch stress becomes greater. There is a video I posted recently about China's Long March rocket development which talks about this issue as one of the major hurdle they finally solved for Long March 5 by making the rocket body only 3mm thin which shaves off significant amount of weight which in turn increase the thrust to weight ratio. To make the structure of the rocket this thin is incredible to say the least (get your ruler out and measure and see for yourself how thin 3mm is - that's thinner than your iPhone!) and quite a technological achievment.
 

Ultra

Junior Member
Both The Diplomat and The Moscow Times have reported this just few hours ago.



China and Russia Sign Contract for S-400 Missile Systems
  • The Moscow Times
  • Apr. 13 2015 15:06
  • Last edited 16:33
China has purchased advanced Russian-made S-400 air defense systems, the CEO of Russia's arms export agency Anatoly Isaikin said in an interview published Monday by newspaper Kommersant.

Purchases of the S-400 have previously been restricted to Russia's Defense Ministry, which gets first rights on all new hardware before manufacturers can hawk it on the global market.

“That [China was the first foreign buyer] can only emphasize the strategic level of our relationship,” Isaikin said.

The S-400, manufactured by Almaz-Antey, is an upgrade of the popular S-300 air defense system, which is capable of targeting up to 36 airplanes at a range of 150 kilometers. The S-400 has the ability to not only shoot down airplanes, but also ballistic missiles, according to Russian reports.

Though Isaikin would not elaborate on the terms of the deal with China, newspaper Vedomosti reported in November that Beijing had signed a $3 billion contract for at least six S-400 divisions, which have about eight missile launchers each.

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Putin Approves Sale of S-400 to China
The advanced air and missile defense system will strengthen China vis-à-vis Taiwan, Japan and India.
By
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April 11, 2014

Vladimir Putin has approved in principle the sale of Russia’s most advanced air and missile defense system to China, Russian media outlets have reported.

According to a report on the Russian business channel RBK TV, which was reproduced by BBC Monitoring, Russian President Putin has approved the sale of between two and four S-400 air and missile defense systems to China.
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, and if approved would make China the first foreign customer of the advanced defense system. Already, China deploys a
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.

Despite the ongoing talks, some had felt that Russia would ultimately refuse to sell China the S-400 surface-to-air missile system for a number of reasons. First, there were reports that Russia planned to withhold all foreign sales of the S-400 until Moscow’s own military needs had been satisfied, sometime later this decade. More importantly, there were widespread concerns in Russian military circles that China would purchase a few of the systems with the intent of stealing the technology and reverse engineering a domestic version.
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Russia and China have sought to overcome this problem by signing stronger intellectual property protection (IPP) agreements. One IPP agreement was signed in 2008, but Russian officials later dismissed it as being insufficient. Russia and China also reportedly signed a stronger IPP agreement in 2012, although few details about this deal have been released.

With regards to the S-400,
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Russia and China hope to overcome the issue of reverse-engineering using a combination of stronger IPP agreements as well as larger volumes of sales. If China purchases a larger quantity of S-400 missile systems up front, Russia’s arms industry will suffer less if Beijing turns around and reverse-engineers the system.

The S-400 itself is likely to significantly enhance Chinese military power in a number of different contingencies. No country will be more affected by China’s S-400 missile systems, which—with a range of 400 kilometers—experts suggest will allow Beijing to achieve air dominance over the Taiwanese strait. York Chen, a former member of Taiwan’s National Security Council,
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: “When S-400s work together with Chinese land- and sea-based fighters, the Chinese will have more confidence in sustaining airspace dominance over the Taiwan theater, thus depriving any organized resistance by the Taiwan Air Force and deterring the American intervention.”

While Taiwan is likely to be the most affected by China’s deployment of S-400s, it will not be alone in having to deal with this new capability. Japan also will have to contend with China’s S-400, which are expected to cover the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands. The impact the S-400 system will have on Japan’s ability to project power against China will be mitigated somewhat by
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. The joint strike fighters are built with enough stealth to operate in environments with advanced air defense systems.

India will also be impacted by the S-400. Because the system can defend against ballistic missiles, China’s deployment of the S-400 could jeopardize India’s strategic deterrent, which currently relies heavily on land-based missiles. This is likely one of the reasons that
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. Should China launch a first strike on India’s nuclear arsenal that was able to wipe out most of its strategic forces, it could use missile defense systems like the S-400 to potentially defend against the remaining missiles.

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Ultra

Junior Member
Sold: Russian S-400 Missile Defense Systems to China
China will become the first foreign buyer of Russia’s S-400 missile defense system.
By
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April 14, 2015

Russia may have just lifted its
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, but it has also reached a deal to
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with the S-400 Triumf missile defense system. The S-400, an upgraded version of the S-300, had previously only been available to the Russian Ministry of Defense. China will be the
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.

The S-400, which is manufactured by Almaz-Antey, has been in service in Russia since 2007. The sophisticated air defense system is capable of firing three types of missiles, creating a layered defence, and can simultaneously engage 36 targets. The system is able to shoot down aircraft–manned and unmanned–and missiles–ballistic and cruise–within a range of 400 km (248.5 miles).

Last April, Russian President Vladimir Putin approved of the principle of selling the systems to China. As Zachary Keck
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:

Despite the ongoing talks, some had felt that Russia would ultimately refuse to sell China the S-400 surface-to-air missile system for a number of reasons. First, there were reports that Russia planned to withhold all foreign sales of the S-400 until Moscow’s own military needs had been satisfied, sometime later this decade. More importantly, there were widespread concerns in Russian military circles that China would purchase a few of the systems with the intent of stealing the technology and reverse engineering a domestic version.
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It seems Russia has decided to go through with the deal despite these concerns. The details of the actual deal have not been revealed, but
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indicated that China “had signed a $3 billion contract for at least six S-400 divisions, which have about eight missile launchers each.”

Anatoly Isaikin, CEO of Russia’s arms export agency, Rosoboronexport, commented in an interview published Monday by Kommersant that China being the first foreign buyer “can only emphasize the strategic level of our relationship.”

While it may be easy to view this sale as a new stage in the burgeoning relations between Russia and China, it’s nothing really new. As of 2008, China fielded approximately 40 S-300PMU systems, as well as 60 HQ-15/18s, a Chinese-built version. That China is the first foreign buyer for S-400 was something of an inevitability.

Still, the re-kindling of Russia and China’s friendship worries some, especially in light of Russia’s schism with Europe and the United States over Ukraine. Their reinvigorated ties span not just military technology but include vast energy deals.

Last May,
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settled a gas deal worth $400 billion. Under the deal Russia will supply China with 38 billion cubic meters of natural gas per year, for 30 years, via the eastern “Power of Siberia” pipeline. A second deal, announced in November of last year, made waves but as
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pointed out: “the deal seems to be little more than an effort to ensure that Putin did not leave China empty-handed.”

The second gas deal, the parameters of which China says will be settled later this year, aims to supply the energy-hungry country with gas from western Siberian fields. The difference between this deal and the first is that
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“to a pipeline that will, for the first time, allow Russia to choose between exporting gas to Asia or to Europe,” whereas the May 2014 deal involved gas that could only economically be sold in Asia.

Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi, in a March press conference, said the energy deals with Russia were part of China’s One Belt, One Road strategy for increasing engagement and trade with its neighbors.


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Ultra

Junior Member
I think this is a game changer for Taiwan. Basically if they put S-400 along the coastal area they can actually threaten and shoot down all aircraft on Taiwan's side of the sky! The Taiwan stait is merely 130 km wide at its narrowest part, and 220 km at its widest. With a range of 400 km, S-400 fielded in Fujian Province will be able to cover the entire Taiwan airspace!

“Given its extremely long range and effective electronic warfare capabilities, the S-400 is a game-changing system that challenges current military capabilities at the operational level of war,” said Paul Giarra, president, Global Strategies and Transformation. The S-400 will have the “effect of turning a defensive system into an offensive system, and extend China’s A2/AD [anti-access/area-denial] umbrella over the territory of American allies and the high seas.”

The S-400 will give China more confidence in controlling airspace over Taiwan, and will serve as a critical factor in defeating Taiwan’s air defense capabilities during a war, said York Chen, a former senior adviser of Taiwan’s National Security Council.

Effective air defense systems like the S-400 are consequential because of the cost equation involved, Giarra said. Surface-to-air missile systems are much less expensive than the manned and unmanned aircraft they are designed to shoot down, and the very long range of the S-400 multiplies the advantage.

“Without effective countermeasures, aircraft will be held away from China’s coasts, giving teeth, for instance, to China’s assertion that surveillance missions in China’s EEZ [exclusive economic zone] are not allowed,” he said.

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