Reply The greatest military strategist in Chinese history?

vesicles

Colonel
Hmm... what u say is true. However as we can see, those strategies drawn out by Mao is important for CCP and PLA at one point and the entire china in another point. But those are more of a political strategies and overall country's strategies which was at a much higher framework.

That is exactly my point!! This is the difference between a general who only cares about how to fight a battle and a strategist who think about the whole situation, including politics. Let's not forget that the military is a political tool and is in the frame of any political planning. Any great military strategist would not only think about the military in the pure military terms, but also in the context of the whole political environment because one cannot win a war depending only on pure military. Military can never be considered to be a separate entity away from politics. When was the last time you see the outcome of a war decided purely by military? ALmost never. It's the whole package, like the whole geopolitical environment. what separates a great strategist from a whole bunch of brilliant generals is his ability to consider the whole package and elevate his thinking above the pure military. that is also why we see many great generals who win battles after battles, but eventually lose the whole war. To use an analogy, a war can be like an expedition, a brilliant general is like a great outdoor man who can survive any situation in the wild and beat any beasts. But without a strategist who is like a guide, these generals are simply blind. They can blindly roam in the wild for a long time and go a long distance before they find out that they are actually going the opposite way and away from the treasure.

Let's take an example of Zhuge Liang and Cao Cao in the NOVEL of 3 Kingdom. We now consider them great strategists and in different leagues than generals like Guan Yu, Zhang Liao, or Huang Zhong. These generals are also capable of brilliant military strategies. For instance, Huang Zhong in the campaign of Ding Jun Shan used brilliant strategies to beat Xiaho Yuan. But do we ever think of them as strategists? Absolutely not. We always consider them as generals who fight battles. What makes Zhuge Liang and Cao Cao different is that they elevate their thinking up to the level of politics AND military. Being able to organically integrate politics AND military is a must for any strategist because one MUST think about both in order to win a war. Generals, like Lin Biao and Peng Dehuai, however, only have to think about individual campaigns.

This is why I keep barking about the need to distinguish between a strategist and a general. In Chinese, we have two terms, Zhan Lue (strategy) and Zhan Shu (tactics). A strategist focuses more on Zhan Lue where he looks at the whole situation and make decisions on a grand scale, or like you said, on a higher framwork. A general is a tactician who looks at things on a more detailed scale, such as how many troops should he depoly, what kind of formation should he use, which road should he take... Since we are talking about the greatest strategists, not the greatest generals, we should focus on those whoes decisions have much wider implications and on a grand scale.

BTW, the strategy of "country-side surrounding the cities" is a military strategy in every sense of the word.
 
Last edited:

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
That is exactly my point!! This is the difference between a general who only cares about how to fight a battle and a strategist who think about the whole situation, including politics. Let's not forget that the military is a political tool and is in the frame of any political planning. Any great military strategist would not only think about the military in the pure military terms, but also in the context of the whole political environment because one cannot win a war depending only on pure military. Military can never be considered to be a separate entity away from politics. When was the last time you see the outcome of a war decided purely by military? ALmost never. It's the whole package, like the whole geopolitical environment. what separates a great strategist from a whole bunch of brilliant generals is his ability to consider the whole package and elevate his thinking above the pure military. that is also why we see many great generals who win battles after battles, but eventually lose the whole war. To use an analogy, a war can be like an expedition, a brilliant general is like a great outdoor man who can survive any situation in the wild and beat any beasts. But without a strategist who is like a guide, these generals are simply blind. They can blindly roam in the wild for a long time and go a long distance before they find out that they are actually going the opposite way and away from the treasure.

Let's take an example of Zhuge Liang and Cao Cao in the NOVEL of 3 Kingdom. We now consider them great strategists and in different leagues than generals like Guan Yu, Zhang Liao, or Huang Zhong. These generals are also capable of brilliant military strategies. For instance, Huang Zhong in the campaign of Ding Jun Shan used brilliant strategies to beat Xiaho Yuan. But do we ever think of them as strategists? Absolutely not. We always consider them as generals who fight battles. What makes Zhuge Liang and Cao Cao different is that they elevate their thinking up to the level of politics AND military. Being able to organically integrate politics AND military is a must for any strategist because one MUST think about both in order to win a war. Generals, like Lin Biao and Peng Dehuai, however, only have to think about individual campaigns.

This is why I keep barking about the need to distinguish between a strategist and a general. In Chinese, we have two terms, Zhan Lue (strategy) and Zhan Shu (tactics). A strategist focuses more on Zhan Lue where he looks at the whole situation and make decisions on a grand scale, or like you said, on a higher framwork. A general is a tactician who looks at things on a more detailed scale, such as how many troops should he depoly, what kind of formation should he use, which road should he take... Since we are talking about the greatest strategists, not the greatest generals, we should focus on those whoes decisions have much wider implications and on a grand scale.

BTW, the strategy of "country-side surrounding the cities" is a military strategy in every sense of the word.

Ok. What you say make alot of sense... I am learning new things everyday...

Oh btw, using the very clear explanation from vesicles, could we also include Deng Xiaoping into the great military strategists of China? The man open up chinese economic and pioneered the military's modernization program. When China's economy getting stronger, China would have alot more money for her military so she could afford advance weaponries from Russia and the west. Also with more money, Chinese military industries are also getting a perk.

That was a strategy in long term... with chinese arms industry becoming stronger, the Chinese would not need to be relying on outside sources for arms in future.
 
Last edited:

tres

New Member
they are here, all strategies
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


What you say might be true, pardon me for the ignorant of Mao's writing, but could you direct me to a link or a book that actually have his writing. I would like very much to read his military strategies but not his biography or any writing by him on his accomplishment. Pardon me for my cynical approach to it because I am wary that any writing by himself on his accomplishment might not actually be very true to the actual circumstances.
 

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
they are here, all strategies
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Thanks Tres for the very detail writing of Maozedong. I think I have to withdraw most of what I say about him ;)

However I still stand by my point that all strategists of China should be place at the equal pedestral and at the same level without anyone being better than the other.

Oh... and while we are at it... please do not forget Deng Xiaoping and his economic reform that actually allowed PLA to become much stronger because more money was available for them.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Thanks Tres for the very detail writing of Maozedong. I think I have to withdraw most of what I say about him ;)

However I still stand by my point that all strategists of China should be place at the equal pedestral and at the same level without anyone being better than the other.

Oh... and while we are at it... please do not forget Deng Xiaoping and his economic reform that actually allowed PLA to become much stronger because more money was available for them.

I agree. To compare people in different era is like making "Guan Gong fight Qin Qiong". Because of all the different historical background, it is so difficult to say which one is actually better.
 

maozedong

Banned Idiot
vesicles, in chinese history, there are many well-known war battles, but there is a war battle not many people know, I just read from some one post:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


can you translate about detail? of caurse not the total article.
 

solarz

Brigadier
vesicles, in chinese history, there are many well-known war battles, but there is a war battle not many people know, I just read from some one post:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


can you translate about detail? of caurse not the total article.

This article mentions no references or credentials. Sorry if I don't entirely trust an article written up on a forum as an accurate historical reference.
 

maozedong

Banned Idiot
This article mentions no references or credentials. Sorry if I don't entirely trust an article written up on a forum as an accurate historical reference.

the article is correct, I already checked <=+五史新编> published by <上海古藉出版社> (Shanghai Ancient Press ), 南北朝"梁书"-"陈庆之传记", becaurse the book not allow the people to copy their article from internet, so, I can't copy these articles, you may check in the book, there are many different press publish the book for <=+五史>, not only "Shanghai Ancient Press".
just wait, let me find in the internet, if I can't find it, you only read the book.
 
Top