Rand Report

Pointblank

Senior Member
WRT to the F-22, network informationalizing existing planes like Su-27s or Mig-29s or even F-15s for that matter can produce similar effects of F-22s passive interception, even with the lower level of stealthiness of older platforms. This can work to ensure that attempts by US forces to conduct a decapitation strike like the Second Iraq war can be nullified by active defense operations. Better yet, tie it also to AAM equipped drones for better coverage.

The F-22 has a even greater ability to be part of a information network; work has shown that the radar of the F-22 is even capable of creating a P2P network that can share information at a higher bandwidth rate than with existing systems.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Guys, I think all of you are missing something. Chinese land-based high power laser and coil guns. These weapons can then be guided by super-huge land based fire-control radar.
This idea might sound absurd at first, but I think it's only logical that the PLA has allocated, since cold war, a more than proportinate amount of resources into developing these weapons, to what the US does, realising that if they allocate theresources at hand in similar proportions, they would be behind in all fields for the half century.

And the US has 747's with such systems in there noses.

and for the record thanks to thrust vectoring and the Raptors Avionics It has almost the same maneuverability as the super Flanker. Once Fitted with the JHMCS and off bore sight fire capabilities projected in the next few years the fight changes dynamically still leading too Raptors.
 

PrOeLiTeZ

Junior Member
Registered Member
1. I don't see why not. 2 F-22's vs 16-18 other fighters. The two F-22's have a collective total of 12 AIM-120's and 4 AIM-9's. 16 missiles right there. Add the 20mm cannon, you can probably wax 1 fighter with the 480 rounds in the gun. All of this plus the fact that you probably never saw the F-22 coming.

2. The only times the F-22 was 'shot down' in exercise was due to a mulligan; a enemy fighter just happened to re-spawn, and placed his gun sights on one. While that fighter respawned and nailed one F-22, his wingmen were all shot down multiple times.

3. The F-22 is also a surveillance platform; it has a excellent radar and datalink capability, and has acted as a sort of a mini-AWACS to other non-stealthy aircraft, helping guide other aircraft into better positions to gain an advantage.

4. The F-22 on radar is about the size of a small bird. Easily small enough to merge into random clutter. This aircraft is designed for initial penetration into heavily defended airspace and achieve air dominance. That's why it is called an air dominance fighter, not an air superiority fighter. Just one can ruin someone's day and put a real wrench into someone's plans.

5. Chinese SAM's cannot cover Taiwan effectively; it would be at the edge of the range of current SAM systems in use and in development, and would have a low hit probability, plus you have both friendly and enemy aircraft operating in a not very large airspace. The risks of a friendly fire incident is extremely high for SAM batteries in these circumstances.

Not to mention that known SAM sites would be selected as targets for initial strikes; US doctrine in the past couple of years has been to degrade enemy air defence and C&C systems first to throw the enemy into confusion and degrade their ability to respond effectively followed by strikes against logistics, followed by strikes against military units. Destroying or degrading one's ability to achieve situational awareness and be able to fight effectively is a skill the US has honed over the years.
yeah but thats assuming all AAM hits the fighter which i doubt all while. the fighter itself might be hard to mind but an approaching missle is well detected before it reaches the opponent with AIM-120C max range at ~100km and AIM-9 ~18km. Chinese ground forces are able to detect stealth fighters if in range and relay them back to the flankers. And in dogfight scenario I would give my bet on the flanker beating the raptor in an all out gun fight. the only clear thing given the raptor has is its superior electronic equipments, and dampen radar/heat signature/rcs. I still wouldnt put in the pure stealth catergory, i would put it in the 3/4 stealthy category.
 

montyp165

Junior Member
The F-22 has a even greater ability to be part of a information network; work has shown that the radar of the F-22 is even capable of creating a P2P network that can share information at a higher bandwidth rate than with existing systems.

There's no reason either why existing systems can't be upgraded to similar information networks, especially among designs that have continuous upgrades to their internal systems like the F-15K or the Su-35 family.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
There's no reason either why existing systems can't be upgraded to similar information networks, especially among designs that have continuous upgrades to their internal systems like the F-15K or the Su-35 family.

You can only stuff electronics into an airframe that originally didn't have those electronics so far before you have to redesign the entire airplane...
 
I still wouldnt put in the pure stealth catergory, i would put it in the 3/4 stealthy category.

What is considered pure stealth then? The F-22 is more stealthy then the JSF, B-2, or F-117. It is the most stealthy aircraft in existence. Sure, a 100% stealthy aircraft is simply not feasible within the near future, but no other aircraft comes close.

And in dogfight scenario I would give my bet on the flanker beating the raptor in an all out gun fight.

Why? Current Chinese Flankers do not even have TVC, while the F-22s do. Most people are under the wrong impression that the F-22 is not very maneuverable, while to the contrary it is one of the most maneuverable fighters in existence, with no other American fighter even coming close.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
What is considered pure stealth then? The F-22 is more stealthy then the JSF, B-2, or F-117. It is the most stealthy aircraft in existence. Sure, a 100% stealthy aircraft is simply not feasible within the near future, but no other aircraft comes close.

Not exactly. B-2 is stealthier than the F-22 against long wavelengths which is what early warning radar tend to be based in. Things also become less stealthy once everyone upgrades to using PESA or AESA.


Why? Current Chinese Flankers do not even have TVC, while the F-22s do. Most people are under the wrong impression that the F-22 is not very maneuverable, while to the contrary it is one of the most maneuverable fighters in existence, with no other American fighter even coming close.


TVC is overrated. Once again, the lifting forces exerted against a wing is far greater than Y-axis vector forces if the nozzle is swiveled---an action that also reduces the X-axis forces and therefore the forward motion of the aircraft.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
And the US has 747's with such systems in there noses.

and for the record thanks to thrust vectoring and the Raptors Avionics It has almost the same maneuverability as the super Flanker. Once Fitted with the JHMCS and off bore sight fire capabilities projected in the next few years the fight changes dynamically still leading too Raptors.


Flankers already have helmet sights and off bore sight firing capabilities. In fact, they're the pioneers in the field. Of course, theirs is first generation by now, looking crude compared to the JHMCS and AIM-9X, which can be regarded as second generation, but the Chinese have been working on their own stuff though independent of what the Russians are also developing for the future.

The Flanker has something notably the US teen fighters don't have when they engage the F-22 in Red Flag engagements and failed to lock on to the Raptor. What the Flankers have are IRSTs that can be used to track targets, que missiles and work as a laser targeting gunsight.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
You can only stuff electronics into an airframe that originally didn't have those electronics so far before you have to redesign the entire airplane...

Its not really a problem on the Flanker because these planes are big to begin with. How many fighters in the world can allow for a 1 meter diameter radar array?
 
Top