Rand Report

twodollarss

Banned Idiot
Perhaps China don't have the technology to track or scan a B-2 bomber or F-22 raptor.

If this same question is asked in a reversed manner... what if a stealth warplane that has the caliber of a B-2 bomber or F-22 and start penetrating U.S air space, what possible weapons that U.S might use to track it down and destroy it. Does U.S even have radars to track stealth offshore and inland?
 
If this same question is asked in a reversed manner... what if a stealth warplane that has the caliber of a B-2 bomber or F-22 and start penetrating U.S air space, what possible weapons that U.S might use to track it down and destroy it. Does U.S even have radars to track stealth offshore and inland?

In theory, any modern nation can develop and deploy biostatic radars using today's technology to identify the general vicinity of stealth aircraft, and then vector in IRST-equipped fighters to deal with the threat with non-radar-dependent weapons... ie IR-guidance missiles. Such a system will not be able to do anything about B-2s launching standoff weapons at sufficient range. I do not know how high the costs of deploying such systems could be.

I have a question though to those that may know the answer- It is said that the frontal RCS on a Raptor is about the same as a marble. How large is the RCS from the back or sides? And can missiles be upgraded, using today's technology, to home in on that small of a RCS?

I am pretty sure that the US is investing in anti-stealth technology though, and it still has a very long time before it faces any adversary equipped with stealth platforms. I do not think the US will be exporting F-35s all over the place if it was not confident in its ability to handle such threats. Russia is working on systems to negate the effectiviness of stealth in air-to-air combat, such as the OLS system on the Mig-35. No doubt China is too.
 
Last edited:

Pointblank

Senior Member
Why bother with a UAV?

Simply use a Blimp or Barrage Balloon. This would be able to stay up far longer, could be powered by the contol cable and could go up to far greater heights etc.

You could have specialised units for both land and sea to operate them.

Then you have the same situation as in World War I; someone can come in and just shoot the balloon with bullets and down it goes...

Also, the system would be weather-dependent... if there is strong winds, no way can the system stay up. It will probably break the control cable and tether and away it goes...
 
Then you have the same situation as in World War I; someone can come in and just shoot the balloon with bullets and down it goes...

If someone can get into that range, then the destroyer and the fleet is good as gone as well.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
In theory, any modern nation can develop and deploy biostatic radars using today's technology to identify the general vicinity of stealth aircraft, and then vector in IRST-equipped fighters to deal with the threat with non-radar-dependent weapons... ie IR-guidance missiles. Such a system will not be able to do anything about B-2s launching standoff weapons at sufficient range. I do not know how high the costs of deploying such systems could be.

I have a question though to those that may know the answer- It is said that the frontal RCS on a Raptor is about the same as a marble. How large is the RCS from the back or sides? And can missiles be upgraded, using today's technology, to home in on that small of a RCS?

I am pretty sure that the US is investing in anti-stealth technology though, and it still has a very long time before it faces any adversary equipped with stealth platforms. I do not think the US will be exporting F-35s all over the place if it was not confident in its ability to handle such threats. Russia is working on systems to negate the effectiviness of stealth in air-to-air combat, such as the OLS system on the Mig-35. No doubt China is too.

Modern high resolution radars can resolve even raindrops. That just shows you how good today's systems can be.

Dealing with a stealthy jet or target is difficult, but there are clues. One important aspect is the amount of energy that is reflected back from the target. Missiles use continuous wave, which compared to pulse radars, illuminate the target 100% of the time rather than 50%. That means averaged over time, CWI radars can emit and receive more energy than a pulse radar.

Also this favors SARH over ARH, because ARH is basically a monostatic concept. SARH or semi active radar homing however, is bistatic, meaning the emitter and the receiver is not on the same location, and the receiver will process reflection that has been deflected away from the original emitting source. Stealth works by preventing radar reflection from going back to the direction where it was emitted (the monostatic principle is adhered to by ARH or active radar homing). But you certainly don't want to deal with a Raptor using SARH missiles like Sparrows only. But SARH based SAMs, e.g. Standards, are another thing.

You may not have to deal with other stealth fighters yet, but you will sooner deal with stealthy cruise missiles and UAVs first.
 
Last edited:
You may not have to deal with other stealth fighters yet, but you will sooner deal with stealthy cruise missiles and UAVs first.

This brings up another thing I wanted to ask an expert such as yourself.
Could China network some kind of future stealth UAV over a large area to serve as some type of multistatic radar network? You can have the UAVs alternately turn their radars on-off to prevent them from being engaged. Maybe even in the far future have them also fire missiles?

Modern high resolution radars can resolve even raindrops.

So does the difficulty lay in identification rather than detection?
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
This brings up another thing I wanted to ask an expert such as yourself.
Could China network some kind of future stealth UAV over a large area to serve as some type of multistatic radar network? You can have the UAVs alternately turn their radars on-off to prevent them from being engaged. Maybe even in the far future have them also fire missiles?

The problem lies that UAVs cannot carry large and powerful radars without being big and expensive themselves.

Second, bistatic networks only work if the emitter is stationary and whose coordinates are well known to the receiver. The receiver also must know exactly the frequency and when exactly the pulse is emitted. I wonder if the network needs some fixed target somewhere that can be used for baseline measurements. In any case, you want all the receivers and emitters networked.

For that to work, both UAVs must also be able to precisely track each other, and all the UAVs in the network must be able to precisely track each other. It kind of gets really complicated and you generally want to follow the KISS principle as much as you can.

So does the difficulty lay in identification rather than detection?

Yes. But high resolution radars also have another problem, they tend to be short in range. To get better range, you need more power.

You can also go to the extreme end with low frequency radars. At some point, the radar frequency is so long it ignores shape issues. A thing is a thing no matter what the shape is. However, these kinds of radars can detect, but cannot be used for fire control tracking and resolution.

The third way is sheer brute power. At some point, no matter how you shape a thing, it will have to reflect back because the radar emission is that strong. The Russians figured this out to be around 20kw. Now you are aware of the Inverse Square Law, so the further out the radar, the weaker it gets---

"In physics, an inverse-square law is any physical law stating that some physical quantity or strength is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the source of that physical quantity."

However, this applies to emission that is being spread equally from its source. It does not apply to focused and directed beams.

So a partial answer against VLO targets would be powerful electronically scanning radars, preferably with a very wide range of frequencies through mode selection, from low frequency to high frequency for high res work. You also have to match that with back end processing, the ability to process and discriminate weak signals, etc,.
 
So a partial answer against VLO targets would be powerful electronically scanning radars, preferably with a very wide range of frequencies through mode selection, from low frequency to high frequency for high res work. You also have to match that with back end processing, the ability to process and discriminate weak signals, etc,.

So in essence, future AESAs have the potential to nullify stealth technology?

Also, what are your thoughts on the Mig-35's OLS and its ability to engage stealth platforms? The Russians are claiming the system to be effective at detecting up to 45km and engaging targets at 8-10km.
 

Engineer

Major
Then you have the same situation as in World War I; someone can come in and just shoot the balloon with bullets and down it goes...
An airship can attain much higher altitude than an aircraft, thereby being safe from missiles and bullets.

Also, the system would be weather-dependent... if there is strong winds, no way can the system stay up. It will probably break the control cable and tether and away it goes...
It is unrealistic to tether an airship in the first place. To counteract wind, the system will have to be autonomous anyway.

The biggest problem with airship is its payload. A 1.4 m^3 airship for example, can only lift a bit more than 600 g. There is also the problem of escaping helium to deal with.
 

RedMercury

Junior Member
Second, bistatic networks only work if the emitter is stationary and whose coordinates are well known to the receiver. The receiver also must know exactly the frequency and when exactly the pulse is emitted. I wonder if the network needs some fixed target somewhere that can be used for baseline measurements. In any case, you want all the receivers and emitters networked.

It seems to me that, with a static emitter and atomic clocks, you can have receivers that are not networked to the sender. You can frequency hop using a crytographically secure pseudorandom sequence, as long as both sides know the initial key and sychronize their high precision clocks.

Now if these bistatic transmitters can be made magnitudes cheaper than anti-radiation munitions...
 
Top