QTS-11 OICW. 5.8 mm Heavy and 20 mm Air Burst.

Blitzo

Blitzo

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plawolf said:
Interesting information from Hongjiang. But while it appears he has some inside sources, either he didn't fully understand, or the information he got was second, third hand or more removed so a lot of the details have been missed.

I say this because the explanation given for why the PLA chose a bolt acting single load design over a 5 round mag semi-auto for the integrated grenade launcher simply doesn't add up.

The desire to do away with bulky and expensive electronics in the grenade itself to lower price and increase the yield of the rounds is understandable, and almost a textbook example of PLA pragmatism. But that only applies to the grenade rounds and not the rifle.

If that was the only consideration, I would have just issue the troopers with separate 3 round mags for their special grenades. The time difference between switching grenade mags and manually loading a new shell should be negligible.

The advantages of having a 3-5 round rapid fire option over a single shot weapon is obvious to all, and arguably even more so for the special grenades, because when you need to fire a contact detonation round or flechet round, chances are you may need to fire again soon after.

The main reasons to choose bolt action over semi-auto are:
1) increased chamber pressure, with better range and ballistic profile for the grenade.
2) reduced weight from the much simpler mechanical design
3) improved reliability from the simpler mechanical design
4) improved balance from deleting the weight of the 5 round mag and semi-auto loading mechanism. The weight reduction could be even greater if the original design needed some ballast at the front of the gun to stop it being too rear heavy. The changed location of the battery pack, and the general sleeker profile could evidence of this rebalancing.
5) slightly reduced cost from the simpler mechanics

Of these, I think the first 3 would be the primary reasons for choosing bolt action over semi auto.

I also think this weapon may see wider service than what has been suggested. Obviously the PLA isn't going to equip every soldier with one, but it's not hard to see these weapons becoming the standard issue for the grenadiers in squads who would currently be using underslung tube launchers.

I think if the PLA wanted a specialist weapon for only 1 or 2 guys per fireteam, they would have been better off going for a separate dedicated smart grenade launcher like the XM25. Even if they were going with a combi-weapon, the emphasis would have been on the smart grenade launcher, like every other such design out there. They may indeed only issue 1-2 guys one per fireteam, but that would probably be because of costs and production capacity.

By putting the rifle first, the new ZH05 really seems like it can be mass issued as a standardised next gen assault rifle to entire squads or the majority of the squads. At least for special forces and elite units etc.
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Hongjian is a knowledgeable and very up to date poster over on CDF. He's definitely not an insider but he's on top of following the Chinese BBS, and has a lot of first hand expertise. I think he served in the Army, possibly of Germany, but I'm not too sure.

The stuff about ZH-05 he wrote are primarily translated from recently revealed studies and credible articles over on places like cjbdy.


Also, I believe one of the articles said that each PLA squad would only get two ZH-05s each, that is to say, one ZH-05 per fireteam (one PLA squad can be broken down into a machine gun and grenade launcher fireteam).
Arming each squad with two ZH-05s through the entire PLA will be quite a programme. Of course, SOF and recon units might get more ZH-05s en masse like you said, but if the PLA truly plan on enhancing every squad with two ZH-05s, that is quite a boost in firepower.


WRT bolt action versus semi-auto, I think weight was definitely part of the PLA's calculation. Indeed, ZH-05 fully loaded with optics, 30 round mag, and a 20mm grenade, apparently only weighs 5kg -- compared to K11 which weighs over 6kg empty.
However, the ability to manually insert grenades is also a fair reason to go for bolt action, I think. Carrying mags of different types and switching between them when you want to use a different grenade type would be cumbersome, and I wouldn't want to be a soldier carrying three different 20mm mags of 5 or even 3 rounds, on top of everything else.

So in that sense, switching to single shot bolt action over semi auto mag "allowed" grenade type switching to be more practical, I think is what hongjian meant.
 
TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I see so they are almost trying to combine the marksmen and grenadier roles. Still, there will be issues. The South African and Koreans both kept repeater actions for there 20mm grenade launchers for the same reasons the US separated its XM29 into the M25 and moved up to 25mm rounds. The 20mm grenade shell is dominated by circuitry need to calculate how far it has gone from its host weapon in order to air burst above the target. This results in a very small explosive payloads. To make up for that the K11 and Neopup are magazine feed, to allow rapidly following on. The M25 scaled up to 25mm and retains semiautomatic fire.

as to keeping magazines I don't view that as a issue in fact I would worry more about loose ammo and having to try and keep it on my person, a magazine keeps it in place loose rounds make noise fall out of pockets unless is fits shotgun shell loops and even then There are issues.
 
Blitzo

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TerraN_EmpirE said:
I see so they are almost trying to combine the marksmen and grenadier roles. Still, there will be issues. The South African and Koreans both kept repeater actions for there 20mm grenade launchers for the same reasons the US separated its XM29 into the M25 and moved up to 25mm rounds. The 20mm grenade shell is dominated by circuitry need to calculate how far it has gone from its host weapon in order to air burst above the target. This results in a very small explosive payloads. To make up for that the K11 and Neopup are magazine feed, to allow rapidly following on. The M25 scaled up to 25mm and retains semiautomatic fire.
Click to expand...

However, the ZH-05 grenades are simplified, so there is less electronics and more room for explosive.
Apparently during tests the PLA were very impressed by the grenades,doing better than grenades and approaching the lethality of an infantry mortar.


as to keeping magazines I don't view that as a issue in fact I would worry more about loose ammo and having to try and keep it on my person, a magazine keeps it in place loose rounds make noise fall out of pockets unless is fits shotgun shell loops and even then There are issues.
Click to expand...

Having three different magazines on a person (possibly six,if you want a reload for each type) would be immensely burdensome and bulky, not to mention the additional weight of the magazine will add up too. On the other hand, a well designed vest with well placed pouches is far less voluminous and can keep them all together without rattling as good as a mag. And bolt action single shot should be more reliable than a semi auto as well.
 
S

Skywatcher

Captain
It's also a lot more ergonomic to put in a single 20mm (the 40mm grenade under barrel launchers) rather than fumbling around to switch two 1 kg magazine.

The brilliance of the ZH-05 is that rather than trying to turn an automatic grenade launcher into an assault rifle, they just put the underslung grenade launcher concept on steroids and updated it for the RMA.
 
N

no_name

Colonel
Would they spread the ammunition across the fireteam member like they do with machine gun ammo?

Would this weapon be suitable for defense role?

Btwe the table posted a few posted back showed that around half of all infantry casualty is caused by grenade fire.

first column is the type of weapon used:

Automatic rifle
Sniper rifle
Rocket launcher (RPG?)
General MG (what does 'general' mean?)
Squad MG
Grenade Launcher
Heavy machine gun
Mortar
Individual combat system - bullet
Individual combat system - Impact grenade
Individual combat system - airburst grenade

So grenade fire from individual combat system account for pretty much half of the casualty inflicted. Given this and the PLA brass still choosed bolt action there much be some significant reasons/advantages for having made that decision.

I wonder if you can think of high speed, flat trajectory grenade launcher as mini squad cannons?

third column shows kill/wound rate per person
fourth column shows weapon contribution %

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9320&d=1393208215
 
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Blitzo

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Yep, I see soldiers armed with these as basically mobile light fire support.

Given the airburst round was almost as effective as the mortar, if PLA manage to equip every squad with even two of these, it would be quite a boost in firepower.

And a full sof team armed with ZH-05s would be devastating. One of the big limitations of previous OICWs were their bulk. ZH-05 is a much lighter weapon. Assuming the electronics are ruggedized and the weapon itself is reliable, this may prove to be an excellent weapon for the elite units.
 
I

Inst

Captain
The ZH-05 is also pretty good in that it deals with the range problems of conventional assault rifles. Conventional assault rifles tend to have their effectiveness drop massively as combat ranges go up, as distance reduces their penetrative capability as well as their accuracy. By using grenade rounds instead of normal bullets, you gain the ability to put effective, if not accurate, fire at long distances, while retaining an assault rifle component for suppressive or killing fire at shorter distances.

As far as the bullpup layout goes; well, it all depends on how much range the grenade launcher needs. The grenade launcher seems to be intended to be effective out to 800m, but in real combat, a combination of weight and range reduction might be better for the grenade aspect.

===

I'm guessing that if the ZH-05 ultimately turns out to be a success, there's a good argument for producing a carbinized variant with reduced weight, length, and grenade range. That would ultimately end up being a general replacement for the QBZ-95, with QBZ-95s remaining in service as PDWs for specialists due to its low weight. In each squad, you'd still have people with ZH-05s, even with carbinized variants, but the ZH-05s would be used for their longer range instead of just as general explosive support.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I would hardly Loose any sleep tonight over that thought. The terrorist type who would want one is either a sniper or a rampage shooter. Trouble for them is they would have no ammo. The PLA 5.8 mm round is obscure to nonexistent outside of the PRC. Even when the PRC has sold abroad they sell NATO or Russian standards. This limits the Carbine portion. As to the 20mm thus far no single standard round has emerged from any of the grenade launchers the four that exist M25, PAWS20, K11 and ZH05 all use unique ammo calibers that are not interchangeable. So even if Norinco were to cook up a export version with 5.56x45mm or 7.62x39mm round compatibility, the fact is the grenade rounds would still be obscure and expensive. Costing more then the average terrorist is willing to shell out. If you pardon the bad pun.
they would have a really expensive assault rifle. That's it.
Of the weapons in this class I more worry about are the PAWS20 and the K11. PAWS20 as its likely to be the second of this weapons class to be exported and I would lay money that would sell well in the middle east. K11 already has some 40 units in the UAE and that's likely a warm up.
unless more systems like these hit the arms markets for now only the M25 Punisher has been used in anger.
 
I

Inst

Captain
I don't think it would be impossible for terrorists to raid PLA depots, or for Norinco supply chains to leak ZH-05 grenades alongside the rifle.

The big difficulty, though, I think is that the ZH-05s probably cost upwards of $5,000. Compare its destructive potential to five guys with $5,000 worth of assault rifles and ammo; the ZH-05s are excellent against military personnel but not cost-effective against civilians.
 
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