PRC/PLAN Laser and Rail Gun Development Thread


taxiya

Major
Registered Member
Machinery/fuel spaces to generate power basically require two elements ---
1)DC power source/AC + alternator - This would likely be provided by IEPS on a non prototype ship like the type 055A/052E(?), so no extra space required local to firing system,
whereas in the current prototype 072,we can expect the areas that normally hold vehicles to have been converted into areas containing extra electricity generation systems (diesel generators/auxillary power)
2) Capacitors/ Compulsator system - This is probably what needs space to be placed locally to firing system, however the arrangement of this system can be quite flexible as it isnt a single item with rigid dimensions but a series of components that can be connected in a loosely coupled manner.
In other words it can be integrated close to the reload system with flexible constraints on required dimensions.
Also i believe the meaning of freeing up space isnt literally in terms of de-allocating physical space but notion of realloting the vls to different roles.
Adding to point 2. Although Capacitor/Battery banks (China doesn't use Compulsator) take space, the conventional ammunition magazine takes much larger space because of the propellant casing while railgun magazine only store the warheads and the warheads are much smaller than conventional counter part because the lack of explosive charges. In the end physical volume of railgun may be the same or smaller (if the capacitor further reduces size in future development).
 
Machinery/fuel spaces to generate power basically require two elements ---
1)DC power source/AC + alternator - This would likely be provided by IEPS on a non prototype ship like the type 055A/052E(?), so no extra space required local to firing system,
whereas in the current prototype 072,we can expect the areas that normally hold vehicles to have been converted into areas containing extra electricity generation systems (diesel generators/auxillary power)
2) Capacitors/ Compulsator system - This is probably what needs space to be placed locally to firing system, however the arrangement of this system can be quite flexible as it isnt a single item with rigid dimensions but a series of components that can be connected in a loosely coupled manner.
In other words it can be integrated close to the reload system with flexible constraints on required dimensions.
Also i believe the meaning of freeing up space isnt literally in terms of de-allocating physical space but notion of realloting the vls to different roles.
we may play if you want:

the claim is
#535 Biscuits, Today at 2:28 AM
"Also it would have applications for China's frigates and/or smaller destroyers in order to free up space by replacing CJ-10 in a land strike role."

and I play the side with missiles, have
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500 kg warhead,
assuming three quarters of Mach = 257 m/s hitting speed ... 0.5*500*257^2 = 17 (rounded) MJ, plus
guessing 50 (fifty) kg TNT equivalent in it ... 209 (rounded) MJ, so
236 MJ in total

I have dozen of them, weighting ... 2.4 tons (guessing based on X-101) times 12 ... let's make it 30 (thirty) tons,
delivering almost three GJ

counter it with your railgun:
 

Biscuits

Junior Member
Registered Member
we may play if you want:

the claim is
#535 Biscuits, Today at 2:28 AM
"Also it would have applications for China's frigates and/or smaller destroyers in order to free up space by replacing CJ-10 in a land strike role."

and I play the side with missiles, have
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
500 kg warhead,
assuming three quarters of Mach = 257 m/s hitting speed ... 0.5*500*257^2 = 17 (rounded) MJ, plus
guessing 50 (fifty) kg TNT equivalent in it ... 209 (rounded) MJ, so
236 MJ in total

I have dozen of them, weighting ... 2.4 tons (guessing based on X-101) times 12 ... let's make it 30 (thirty) tons,
delivering almost three GJ

counter it with your railgun:
The CJ-10 with a range of 2000km+ is superior vs peer and near peer opponents. However, vs a terrorist camp or weapons cache it is complete overkill.

Railgun would be cheaper/projectile and 1 ship would be able to carry more railgun rounds than CJ-10s, thus letting them strike more targets.

Your 12 CJ-10s would be expended after hitting 12 targets, then the ship must replenish.

A 052 could carry perhaps 600 railgun rounds (conservative estimate), which means it could eliminate a lot more soft targets.

The railgun rounds would also be easy to replenish at sea, while the VLS might require reload at a naval base.

Railgun won’t replace advanced long range land attack missiles, but they have clear advantages.

Last but not least, in a naval duel, the railgun can fire continuously and keep up pressure on an enemy destroyer, adding another supersonic projectile to the mixture of YJ-18s and 12s.
 

Bhurki

Junior Member
Registered Member
we may play if you want:

the claim is
#535 Biscuits, Today at 2:28 AM
"Also it would have applications for China's frigates and/or smaller destroyers in order to free up space by replacing CJ-10 in a land strike role."

and I play the side with missiles, have
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
500 kg warhead,
assuming three quarters of Mach = 257 m/s hitting speed ... 0.5*500*257^2 = 17 (rounded) MJ, plus
guessing 50 (fifty) kg TNT equivalent in it ... 209 (rounded) MJ, so
236 MJ in total

I have dozen of them, weighting ... 2.4 tons (guessing based on X-101) times 12 ... let's make it 30 (thirty) tons,
delivering almost three GJ

counter it with your railgun:
Cj10 is supposed to have a range of 1500km, while railgun's effective range would be around 150 km.
Wouldn't you as a captain of a ship be happier if you didnt have to expend an expensive cruise missile on a target 100 km away? And rather just use a barrage of 10 simultaneous shots that are spaced in terms of angle so as to exactly arrive at the same time at target( forgot the term for it).
You play the side with missiles,
I play the side with missiles and railgun.
 

Bhurki

Junior Member
Registered Member
@Jura
Some numbers from the blitzer rail gun presentation..
Muzzle velocity Mach 7
At target in excess of 100 miles (162 km), projectile velocity is more than muzzle velocity of conventional guns ( Mach 2.2 for standard 5 inch shell), its safe to assume that at target 100 km away, projectile velocity will +1km/s
Shell weight 23 lbs ( >10 kg)
Kinetic energy at impact = 0.5*10*(1)²=5MJ
Flight time is under 80 sec.
Also, trajectory of projectile and muzzle velocity can be altered to hit the target with multiple shots together, overwhelming the defenses.
For the USN atleast, the proposition isnt bad, the $1.2 million costing harpoon has under a 100 mile range, for the same cost 50+ of these railgun shots can be fired.
With such high speeds, it can also be used as a defense against incoming cruise missiles.
 

Hendrik_2000

Brigadier
WASHINGTON: China is on the cusp of fielding some of the world's most advanced weapons systems - and in some cases already has surpassed its rivals, a Pentagon assessment released Tuesday (Jan 15) found.
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An unclassified report by the Defense Intelligence Agency says Beijing has made enormous military strides in recent years, thanks partly to domestic laws forcing foreign partners to divulge technical secrets in exchange for access to China's vast market.


As a result of "acquiring technology by any means available," China now is at the leading edge on a range of technologies, including with its naval designs, with medium- and intermediate-range missiles, and with hypersonic weapons - where missiles can fly at many times the speed of sound and dodge missile-defense systems.

"The result of this multifaceted approach to technology acquisition is a PLA (People's Liberation Army) on the verge of fielding some of the most modern weapon systems in the world," states the report, entitled "China Military Power."

"In some areas, it already leads the world."

China's increasing military might means it has advanced capabilities in the air, at sea, in space and in cyberspace that will "enable China to impose its will in the region," the report notes.



A particular focus for Beijing has been the prospect of an eventual conflict with Taiwan, which China sees as part of its territory.

Beijing has said it will not hesitate to use force if Taipei formally declares independence, or in the case of external intervention - including by the United States, the island's most powerful unofficial ally.

"BIGGEST CONCERN"

Speaking to Pentagon reporters, a senior defense intelligence official said he was worried China's military is now advanced enough that PLA generals could feel confident they could invade Taiwan.

"The biggest concern is that as a lot of these technologies mature... (China) will reach a point where internally within their decision-making they will decide that using military force for a regional conflict is something that is more imminent," the official said on condition of anonymity.

Taiwan is a self-ruled island and has its own currency, flag and government, but is not recognized as an independent state by the United Nations.

Still, the official noted, China has not fought in a war for 40 years and its massive military and joint command structure lacks experience in real-world conflict.

"It will take a while for (the PLA) to be able to work these (military) services together, to be able to work these joint theaters and to be able to deal with a large, complex operation," the official said.

The intelligence report said China is developing new medium- and long-range stealth bombers capable of striking regional and global targets.

Such planes will likely reach initial operational capability by about 2025, the report notes.

The official added that China keeps a lot of its military development secret by conducting research in underground complexes, away from the prying eyes of satellites.

Source: AFP/nc
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Biscuits

Junior Member
Registered Member
Lol “acquiring technology from any means available” from whom? The reptilians?

With regards to fighting a peer opponent with more advanced/equally advanced equipment, US and China both have zero experience.

What’s really worrying is the lack of budget for the PLA.
 
your first point ("soft targets")
The CJ-10 with a range of 2000km+ is superior vs peer and near peer opponents. However, vs a terrorist camp or weapons cache it is complete overkill.

Railgun would be cheaper/projectile and 1 ship would be able to carry more railgun rounds than CJ-10s, thus letting them strike more targets.

Your 12 CJ-10s would be expended after hitting 12 targets, then the ship must replenish.

A 052 could carry perhaps 600 railgun rounds (conservative estimate), which means it could eliminate a lot more soft targets.

The railgun rounds would also be easy to replenish at sea, while the VLS might require reload at a naval base.

Railgun won’t replace advanced long range land attack missiles, but they have clear advantages.
is basically what I would've said if I had had to play the railgun side LOL

actually the Nitze (DDG-94) used TLAMs against coastal radars according to
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#389 Jura, Oct 16, 2016

BUT what you've described might be achieved with a classical gun firing for example Vulcano rounds



your second point:
Last but not least, in a naval duel, the railgun can fire continuously and keep up pressure on an enemy destroyer, adding another supersonic projectile to the mixture of YJ-18s and 12s.
is intriguing, will address it in a post right below
 

Biscuits

Junior Member
Registered Member
your first point ("soft targets")is basically what I would've said if I had had to play the railgun side LOL

actually the Nitze (DDG-94) used TLAMs against coastal radars according to
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#389 Jura, Oct 16, 2016

BUT what you've described might be achieved with a classical gun firing for example Vulcano rounds



your second point:
is intriguing, will address it in a post right below
Yes, it targeted three (3) radar sites.

In a hypothetical conflict with a third world nation, a 052(mod. railgun) can easily park itself 300km from the coast. Then it can fire ~600 rounds vs all sorts of things, military trucks, government buildings, airfields, artillery etc. While the 052 is shooting, a 908 can head out from a nearby base, filled to the brim with railgun rounds, giving it even more reloads.

The Vulcano rounds only have a range of 100km vs 300 ish for the railgun. That would put the 052 at risk from primitive AShM.

Such rounds could be more expensive than railguns, given that they are semi guided mini missiles.
 

gelgoog

Senior Member
Registered Member
Lol “acquiring technology from any means available” from whom? The reptilians?

With regards to fighting a peer opponent with more advanced/equally advanced equipment, US and China both have zero experience.

What’s really worrying is the lack of budget for the PLA.
Not really. China does not need the same military budget as the USA because it does have as widespread of a military and it is not engaged in multiple wars.
Besides, even if you gave them more money, what would happen? In a lot of areas time is more important than money. It is not like money is a magical cure for all problems. The PLAN presently has a similar or higher naval build rate to the US Navy for example. The only exception is possibly in the carrier sector. But their main issue is still the technological deficit not the production rate. More money would not fix that problem.

Once China has developed leading edge weapons platforms then it will become sensible to build those at a high enough rate. Just look at the Type 052 program as an example. It took them several iterations to get something decent and once they had a viable platform in the Type 052D then they built that in significant numbers. I suspect the same will happen with the J-16 as can be seen by the yearly production of that platform. The J-20 still has a low production rate in comparison because the platform is not mature yet. So it does not make sense to manufacture it at a higher rate.

The laser and rail gun platforms, for example, will only be attained once the PLAN has ships with IEP. i.e. the fabled Type 052E and Type 055A.
 
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