PLAN Type 051B/C Class Destroyers

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Then you need to take a look at this photo.
Here, let me make it painfully obvious for you:
k14AMZu.jpg

That bar corresponds perfectly to the smaller of the two bar sets, which face directly forward/aft and port/starboard. The plain fact is that in fact BOTH bar sets have 360 degree coverage. Therefore, NEITHER of them are limited to the firing arc of the main gun and neither of them show any evidence that they are mainly or solely intended as FCRs for the gun.

Only if the MFRs are X-band, like APAR which all these ships use except for the Darings. You can't use SAMPSON on the Darings for this, not just because its an S-band, but also gun support is never mentioned in any of its documentation.

No. Its not fast against against fast moving ships, nor has the ability to discriminate tightly against small ships from a rock outcropping. One important reason why Ku-bands are preferred for gun control is for target discrimination, which also helps discriminate targets against surface scatter.
Fact is, there is no other radar that is mentioned for fire control past the maximum range of the EOGCS (18km) or for use in adverse weather conditions which would completely eliminate the function of the EOGCS. Meanwhile the main gun itself has a range of at least 27km. Also, the resolution achievable by a radar is directly related to its wavelength, which in the case of S-band is at worst 15cm and at best 7.5cm. This may be relevant to a maneuvering missile body (and is obviously the reason S-band isn't used as air defense missile guidance), but versus a ship with 10's to 100's of meters of length, beam, or height, this resolution limitation is simply laughable and has less than no relevance.

OTH can work good enough especially because the antiship missiles tend to have very large catch baskets, definitely much larger than an AAM, where even infrared can have a catch basket around 20km. The purpose of mid phase update guidance is to put the missile close enough for the radar seeker to catch the target, and that can be as much as over 50km. The bigger the missiles, the larger the radar seekers and the larger the catch baskets or terminal active homing range.
This is not relevant to the portion that I highlighted, which was to challenge your assumption that the 055's EW suite can serve as some kind of multi-band receiver for the purpose of a long range missile's FCR, something which I don't know that any other EW suite has the ability to do.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Here, let me make it painfully obvious for you:
View attachment 46676

That bar corresponds perfectly to the smaller of the two bar sets, which face directly forward/aft and port/starboard. The plain fact is that in fact BOTH bar sets have 360 degree coverage. Therefore, NEITHER of them are limited to the firing arc of the main gun and neither of them show any evidence that they are mainly or solely intended as FCRs for the gun.

I still doubt it. Take a look at this from the side again. The proportions don't match. The smaller arrays are more rectangular and longer.

1BeWIEH.jpg



If assuming these arrays are not gun control which can be given to the arrays on the tower, the bar arrays on top of the bridge can also be for navigation. Regardless of what S-band can pick up, standard sea navigation radars all use X-band in order to resolve against small objects in the water, some have dual S and X band. Navigation radars all tend to have a bar like shape. They are typically rotational but the Type 055 is striking for not having a single mechanical scanning radar. Something there must be the navigation radar array.

But for anti ship missile use? Its just small. The range would be limited, which would suit a gunnery or a navigation radar just fine.

Fact is, there is no other radar that is mentioned for fire control past the maximum range of the EOGCS (18km) or for use in adverse weather conditions which would completely eliminate the function of the EOGCS. Meanwhile the main gun itself has a range of at least 27km. Also, the resolution achievable by a radar is directly related to its wavelength, which in the case of S-band is at worst 15cm and at best 7.5cm. This may be relevant to a maneuvering missile body (and is obviously the reason S-band isn't used as air defense missile guidance), but versus a ship with 10's to 100's of meters of length, beam, or height, this resolution limitation is simply laughable and has less than no relevance.

Just because you can do it does not mean its a good idea.

You're assuming that you're shelling big ships. Not small fast boats that are often not made of metal, like used by pirates, Iranian Republican guards and so on. Or for that matter, the main gun can also be used as a CIWS against low flying aircraft and sea skimmers. But you can't do that with S-band. Previously ships like the Daring and even the Burke assumed that EO fire gunnery systems cued by S-band radar would be sufficient. Now the Navy is fitting SPQ-9s (a small planar array with X-band for those who don't know what it is) into the Burkes to serve as a gunnery radar (said radar has been a standard with Ticos, Nimitzes, and other Navy ships for this purpose as standard for decades.) That sounds like a mistake realization. Flight III Burke will have the improved SPQ-9B as a standard fit.

This is not relevant to the portion that I highlighted, which was to challenge your assumption that the 055's EW suite can serve as some kind of multi-band receiver for the purpose of a long range missile's FCR, something which I don't know that any other EW suite has the ability to do.

I don't see why any EW suite cannot do that, if you really want to do it. The passive functions mentioned with the Mineral ME/Bandstand radar look pretty standard to any RWR and any EW suite. Attacking something based on its radar signals is something that is done on SEAD missions all the time, although you have a choice of beaming a spoofing signal against the target or send an ARM missile at it. But lets assume from the naval side, it may not be a bright idea and certainly not a comfortable idea to send a missile on the basis of the RWR's information alone. You probably want a stronger confirmation procedure before you send missiles flying, hence a coop mode.

The functionality of receiving passive signals, triangulation and identification, that's EW job. Its surprising to see it as part of a radar. And by the way, Mineral ME also has a third component which is basically a coop mode with other assets, relaying data in and out with all these other assets. Again, this is not something you would expect to see on a radar set, as this functionality falls to another department. But I guess the Mineral ME is marketed as a complete stand alone system for surface ship targeting, although the customers can elect to omit or choose only specific parts. Overall as a radar set, Mineral ME and its ilk are pretty unique, maybe as a result of Soviet Cold War naval philosophy, and I cannot find a direct Western equivalent to them, and maybe because in the West, there was no need to invent it.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
I still doubt it. Take a look at this from the side again. The proportions don't match. The smaller arrays are more rectangular and longer.

If assuming these arrays are not gun control which can be given to the arrays on the tower, the bar arrays on top of the bridge can also be for navigation. Regardless of what S-band can pick up, standard sea navigation radars all use X-band in order to resolve against small objects in the water, some have dual S and X band. Navigation radars all tend to have a bar like shape. They are typically rotational but the Type 055 is striking for not having a single mechanical scanning radar. Something there must be the navigation radar array.
You can "doubt" all you want. I think it's pretty damn clear to probably everyone else here. Actually TBH I suspect it's pretty clear to you too.

But for anti ship missile use? Its just small. The range would be limited, which would suit a gunnery or a navigation radar just fine.
Oh right, like the Band Stand radar is somehow huge in comparison to these bars. Horizontal bars actually give you far superior azimuth resolution in comparison to vertical bars or parabolic antennas, and azimuth resolution is precisely what you need for distant OTH surface ships that don't have that fly-into-the-air upgrade.

Just because you can do it does not mean its a good idea.

You're assuming that you're shelling big ships. Not small fast boats that are often not made of metal, like used by pirates, Iranian Republican guards and so on. Or for that matter, the main gun can also be used as a CIWS against low flying aircraft and sea skimmers. But you can't do that with S-band. Previously ships like the Daring and even the Burke assumed that EO fire gunnery systems cued by S-band radar would be sufficient. Now the Navy is fitting SPQ-9s (a small planar array with X-band for those who don't know what it is) into the Burkes to serve as a gunnery radar (said radar has been a standard with Ticos, Nimitzes, and other Navy ships for this purpose as standard for decades.) That sounds like a mistake realization. Flight III Burke will have the improved SPQ-9B as a standard fit.
Sorry, but a boat is still far larger and slower than a missile. Also, you have no evidence to indicate that Daring's EOGCS is somehow viewed as "sufficient" for its main gun which has at least a 9km range advantage compared to the EOGCS's maximum range. Meanwhile, Burkes actually use the AN/SPS-67(V)3 (in C-band, BTW) for gun fire control, not its E/O system, so your conspiracy theory of some kind of "mistake realization" is unambiguously erroneous. The SPQ-9B is actually a replacement for the AN/SPS-67(V)3. Fact is, regardless of your personal opinion on the viability of S-band for surface targeting of ships, your original contentions that gun fire radars tend to be above the bridge, that one of the bar sets doesn't have a rearward facing array, and that these arrays are somehow therefore used mostly or entirely for gun fire control, have been demonstrated to be factually or logically erroneous. Putting aside S-band, I have given you examples of ships that DON'T have separate gun FCRs and instead use the main X-band MFRs mounted on the masts. Given that everyone believes the 055's mast contains a 4-panel X-band MFR array, there is absolutely no reason these arrays cannot also be purposed in the same exact way.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
You can "doubt" all you want. I think it's pretty damn clear to probably everyone else here. Actually TBH I suspect it's pretty clear to you too.

Really? You should know what a navigation radar looks like.

1M21F1x500.jpg

Oh right, like the Band Stand radar is somehow huge in comparison to these bars. Horizontal bars actually give you far superior azimuth resolution in comparison to vertical bars or parabolic antennas, and azimuth resolution is precisely what you need for distant OTH surface ships that don't have that fly-into-the-air upgrade.

What does Band Stand look like without a dome?

images.jpeg

Monolit is the latest Russian radar with the same purpose, intended for antiship purposes. This is used on the Admiral Gorshkov class. This is how the coastal version looks.


bbddb4aee40e7c0b6eebf65eaf702db3.jpg


Sorry, but a boat is still far larger and slower than a missile. Also, you have no evidence to indicate that Daring's EOGCS is somehow viewed as "sufficient" for its main gun which has at least a 9km range advantage compared to the EOGCS's maximum range. Meanwhile, Burkes actually use the AN/SPS-67(V)3 (in C-band, BTW) for gun fire control, not its E/O system, so your conspiracy theory of some kind of "mistake realization" is unambiguously erroneous. The SPQ-9B is actually a replacement for the AN/SPS-67(V)3. Fact is, regardless of your personal opinion on the viability of S-band for surface targeting of ships, your original contentions that gun fire radars tend to be above the bridge, that one of the bar sets doesn't have a rearward facing array, and that these arrays are somehow therefore used mostly or entirely for gun fire control, have been demonstrated to be factually or logically erroneous. Putting aside S-band, I have given you examples of ships that DON'T have separate gun FCRs and instead use the main X-band MFRs mounted on the masts. Given that everyone believes the 055's mast contains a 4-panel X-band MFR array, there is absolutely no reason these arrays cannot also be purposed in the same exact way.

Nope. SPS-67 is a navigation radar, not a gun fire control radar. That's plain and simple. Its equivalent on the Daring class is the Raytheon 1047.

an-sps-73-radar.jpg



SPQ-9 looks completely nothing like these.
 

Attachments

  • 1M21F1x500.jpg
    1M21F1x500.jpg
    17.9 KB · Views: 1
  • images.jpeg
    images.jpeg
    4.7 KB · Views: 2

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
This is how the Raytheon Type 1047 on the Darings look.

11308571346_8c3994eec1_b.jpg


The SPQ-9 old version, and the new version.

SPQ-9_radome_on_USS_Nicholson_(DD-982).jpg AN-SPQ-9B-Radars-for-Three-U.S.Navy-Vessels.jpg


And if you want an example for a ship that has an X-band radar, and still has a separate X or K-band gun fire control radar, look at the last array above.

Flight III Arleigh Burke has the AMDR array, which is a dual S and X band, but relies on the SPQ-9B for its gun fire control.

Other examples include:

Project 20380/385 class of Stereguschy corvettes.

russian-navy-commissions-project-20380-corvette-sovershenny-into-pacific-fleet.jpg


Plank Shave radar, the main X-band radar of this ship, is housed in that mast like structure underneath the spherical radome that contains the Funze search radar. The gun fire control radar is the small radar on top of the bridge called the Puma. Plank Shave does what Mineral ME does.

The Admiral Gorshkov class has the Poliment radar for X-band targeting for the SAMs, but uses Monolit for antiship missiles and Puma for the gun fire control.

Sovremenny destroyers have the Bandstand or Mineral ME radar which is the main X-band radar on the ship, but uses Kite Screech, a small X-band, for the guns, and the MR90 Orekhs for the Shtils.

Looking at other nation's examples may not be as relevant to how the PLAN designs things because every country tends to have some kind of radar design philosophy on their own. The PLAN is strongly influenced by French and Russian design philosophies, both of whom incorporate a dedicated gun fire control radar, the most famous of which is the THALES STIR. This is still mounted on many modern ships, such as the Formidable class of the Singaporean Navy.

A good reason why gun fire control radars are dedicated, even when there is an X-band radar available, is because the GFCS uses the even shorter Ku-band, or J-band in NATO parlance. And that's exactly what the Chinese Type 344 radar --- the standard GFCS for the Chinese Navy --- falls into. Ku-band offers greater advantages over X-band when it comes to sheer tracking, resolution and for close range against small objects. You would think that in order to succeed the Type 344, the successor should have similar to better capabilities.

MFRs are also a poor way to describe X-band radars since they shouldn't be. Even with X-band radars around, same ships are still using dedicated X-band navigation radars, and you can see there are ships that have separate radars for missile guidance, antiship targeting and gun fire control on top of navigation. Its not really that good an idea to toss every available function into a single array. When the array, even an AESA is doing multiple roles, it will have to divide its elements for those tasks and as a result sacrifices power and reception for each task, so it can't do each task as well compared when its completely dedicated to it. Too much burdens, becomes a Jack of All Trades, master of none.


Thales STIR.
STIR.png
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
Really? You should know what a navigation radar looks like.
This is absolutely meaningless as a response to my post that the rear quadrant of the 055 has a bar array which you OBVIOUSLY didn't know about before I posted it for you, and are now trying desperately to avoid having to admit that the smaller bar set ALSO has 360 degree coverage and therefore completely shatters your theory that it represents some kind of gun fire control because it allegedly only covers the gun's arcs. Which BTW is also unambiguously wrong, since the gun can easily cover >270 degrees.

What does Band Stand look like without a dome?

Monolit is the latest Russian radar with the same purpose, intended for antiship purposes. This is used on the Admiral Gorshkov class. This is how the coastal version looks.
Were either of these photos supposed to blow up anyone's skirt somehow?

Nope. SPS-67 is a navigation radar, not a gun fire control radar. That's plain and simple. Its equivalent on the Daring class is the Raytheon 1047.
Wow, you sound SO sure of yourself. And yet you are just SO utterly wrong LOL.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


I want you to repeat to me what is written here:

INTRODUCTION

The MK 34 Gun Fire Control System (GFCS) is an integral part of the Aegis combat weapon system on DDG-51 class ships. It is used to engage surface, air and shore targets. Officers assigned to DDG-51 class ships should be familiar with the MK 34 GFCS as they are often times responsible for the system and the people trained to operate and maintain it.

REFERENCES

(a) SW221-AD-MMO-010/MK 34 MOD 0

A. CAPABILITIES

1. MK 34 GFCS can maintain a track file on up to four Surface Direct Fire (SDF) or Antiair (AA) targets assigned by Command and Decision (C&D), and a maximum of 10 NGFS targets entered at the Gun Console (GC).

2. When a specific assigned target is designated for engagement, the Gun Computer System (GCS) MK 160 Mod 4 computes two fire control solutions (primary and secondary) depending on the type of projectile to be fired. Gun orders based on the selected projectile's solution are sent to the gun mount. (Only one target can be engaged at a time.)



B. GUN COMPUTER SYSTEM (GCS) MK 160 MOD 4

1. The Gun Computer System (GCS) MK 160 Mod 4 accepts target data from the Aegis combat weapon system target sensors (i.e., AN/SPY-1D and AN/SPS-67 radars), and/or operator-entered data for indirect targets. Based on this target data, together with the ship's attitude and clock data, the GCS computes ballistic solutions and gun orders for the mount.
Now can you man up, or can't you?

In one sentence two of your claims have been demonstrated to be unambiguously erroneous, namely that S-band cannot provide targeting data, and that SPS-67 does not provide fire control for the Burke's main gun.

And if you want an example for a ship that has an X-band radar, and still has a separate X or K-band gun fire control radar, look at the last array above.

Flight III Arleigh Burke has the AMDR array, which is a dual S and X band, but relies on the SPQ-9B for its gun fire control.

Plank Shave radar, the main X-band radar of this ship, is housed in that mast like structure underneath the spherical radome that contains the Funze search radar. The gun fire control radar is the small radar on top of the bridge called the Puma. Plank Shave does what Mineral ME does.
These are totally irrelevant examples, since the current iteration of the AMDR X-band is as a rotating radar rather than a fixed 4-panel array like the 055 and the other examples I mentioned, as is the Plank Shave radar for the Sterguschy corvette. The reason these rotating radars are NOT used for gun fire control is because they are just search radars and do not stop rotating unless they want to risk not detecting a target in another quadrant. Radars like SPS-67 and SPQ-9 are primarily gun fire control radars and not mainly search radars.

The Admiral Gorshkov class has the Poliment radar for X-band targeting for the SAMs, but uses Monolit for antiship missiles and Puma for the gun fire control.
And yet the Puma looks absolutely nothing like the bars on top of the 055. The fact that the Poliment can be used only for air defense is probably more a function of its primitivity rather than some personal preference for multiple extraneous radars on a small corvette-sized ship especially when we have so many examples of other ship classes consolidating gun fire control into the ships' MFRs.

Sovremenny destroyers have the Bandstand or Mineral ME radar which is the main X-band radar on the ship, but uses Kite Screech, a small X-band, for the guns, and the MR90 Orekhs for the Shtils.
LOL I don't know anyone else who considers the Band Stand radar to be the "main X-band radar" on the ship, especially since its sole function is as an OTH ASCM targeting radar. The Sov doesn't have a "main" X-band radar like the 055 has a main X-band radar or the Sachsen has a main X-band radar.

A good reason why gun fire control radars are dedicated, even when there is an X-band radar available, is because the GFCS uses the even shorter Ku-band, or J-band in NATO parlance. And that's exactly what the Chinese Type 344 radar --- the standard GFCS for the Chinese Navy --- falls into. Ku-band offers greater advantages over X-band when it comes to sheer tracking, resolution and for close range against small objects. You would think that in order to succeed the Type 344, the successor should have similar to better capabilities.
Nope. GFCS use many different bands, including S, C, X, and Ku, the former three of which I have already provided examples for (S: Daring, Burke; C: Burke, X: De Zeven Provincien, Sachsen, Iver Huitfeldt, etc.) so your statement that a random generic "GFCS" uses Ku-band is just preposterously wrong, regardless of what the PLAN happens to use on any particular ship.

MFRs are also a poor way to describe X-band radars since they shouldn't be. Even with X-band radars around, same ships are still using dedicated X-band navigation radars, and you can see there are ships that have separate radars for missile guidance, antiship targeting and gun fire control on top of navigation. Its not really that good an idea to toss every available function into a single array. When the array, even an AESA is doing multiple roles, it will have to divide its elements for those tasks and as a result sacrifices power and reception for each task, so it can't do each task as well compared when its completely dedicated to it. Too much burdens, becomes a Jack of All Trades, master of none.
Uhh, no. MFRs are a perfect way to describe X-band arrays, especially ones that are fixed 4-panel arrays, and even more especially ones on ships that don't have radars of other bands like S-band. They provide limited volume search, surface search, track, SAM midcourse and terminal guidance, and gun fire control. Newer ones can/will provide EW functions as well. This describes APAR to a T, for example. These functions are defining roles for any future X-band 3 or 4-panel array, like for example the future iteration of the Flight III X-band fixed arrays.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
This is absolutely meaningless as a response to my post that the rear quadrant of the 055 has a bar array which you OBVIOUSLY didn't know about before I posted it for you, and are now trying desperately to avoid having to admit that the smaller bar set ALSO has 360 degree coverage and therefore completely shatters your theory that it represents some kind of gun fire control because it allegedly only covers the gun's arcs. Which BTW is also unambiguously wrong, since the gun can easily cover >270 degrees.

I am still not sure if the back bar is an array as it does not have the right dimensions.

Were either of these photos supposed to blow up anyone's skirt somehow?

Yes. It shows you that assuming that an AshM targeting radar is long and thin is wrong.

Wow, you sound SO sure of yourself. And yet you are just SO utterly wrong LOL.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


I want you to repeat to me what is written here:


Now can you man up, or can't you?

In one sentence two of your claims have been demonstrated to be unambiguously erroneous, namely that S-band cannot provide targeting data, and that SPS-67 does not provide fire control for the Burke's main gun.

SPS-67 is a C band radar, not an S-band. Furthermore, SPS-67 continually rotates, contradicting what you just said here...

These are totally irrelevant examples, since the current iteration of the AMDR X-band is as a rotating radar rather than a fixed 4-panel array like the 055 and the other examples I mentioned, as is the Plank Shave radar for the Sterguschy corvette. The reason these rotating radars are NOT used for gun fire control is because they are just search radars and do not stop rotating unless they want to risk not detecting a target in another quadrant. Radars like SPS-67 and SPQ-9 are primarily gun fire control radars and not mainly search radars.

Bingo, and you should know, that the way SPY-1D works is that it rotates the beams across all four faces.

SPS-67 *rotates*.

SPQ-9 doesn't. It turns side wards so one array faces port, and the other array faces starboard. Most gunnery is shot on the side, assuming for example, the target is headed to the side of the ship. This way, both sides of the ship are simultaneously being covered.

As a matter of fact, SAMPSON also rotates.

And yet the Puma looks absolutely nothing like the bars on top of the 055. The fact that the Poliment can be used only for air defense is probably more a function of its primitivity rather than some personal preference for multiple extraneous radars on a small corvette-sized ship especially when we have so many examples of other ship classes consolidating gun fire control into the ships' MFRs.

Actually it is a stationary phase array, much like the bars on top of the 055. It may turn towards the target.

Furthermore there are plenty of modern examples showing non consolidation --- French, Italian, and just about every US Navy ship except for the Burke which is also moving to this direction. The only purpose I can see of consolidation is to save money; it has no benefit, and all the disadvantages combat wise.

LOL I don't know anyone else who considers the Band Stand radar to be the "main X-band radar" on the ship, especially since its sole function is as an OTH ASCM targeting radar. The Sov doesn't have a "main" X-band radar like the 055 has a main X-band radar or the Sachsen has a main X-band radar.

Bandstand also works as an auxiliary search radar because that is what all radars with surface search ability do. Search needs to be a redundant task because when other radars are switched to doing something, something needs to take up the slack.

Nope. GFCS use many different bands, including S, C, X, and Ku, the former three of which I have already provided examples for (S: Daring, Burke; C: Burke, X: De Zeven Provincien, Sachsen, Iver Huitfeldt, etc.) so your statement that a random generic "GFCS" uses Ku-band is just preposterously wrong, regardless of what the PLAN happens to use on any particular ship.

Sigh. And you should know that all these examples have a somewhat flawed implementation.

For the ships using APAR, APAR is also used for missile guidance. Hence when the radar is lighting up for ESSMs, diverting radar resources to handle gunfire or CIWS support lessens the effectiveness of both. Same issue exists for the SAMPSON and the Darings, if you want to use it for gun control, you can't use it for search effectively. It does not exist for the French and Italian frigates, which uses the Thales STIR or the Selex fire control radar for gun control along with the Heraklex and Kronos search radars.

Burke and Daring uses EO to make up for the lack of precision the S band and rotating radars have. The fact that the Burke is moving to X-band phase arrays for gun fire control is telling.

Uhh, no. MFRs are a perfect way to describe X-band arrays, especially ones that are fixed 4-panel arrays, and even more especially ones on ships that don't have radars of other bands like S-band. They provide limited volume search, surface search, track, SAM midcourse and terminal guidance, and gun fire control. Newer ones can/will provide EW functions as well. This describes APAR to a T, for example. These functions are defining roles for any future X-band 3 or 4-panel array, like for example the future iteration of the Flight III X-band fixed arrays.

Geez. Position of the radar's ship tells you what its primary purpose are, MFR or not. Even an MFR has a primary purpose.

The highest position on the ship is reserved for the radar that is used to scan at the radar horizon for sea skimming threats. The higher the position, the farther the radar horizon stretches.

If you are using APAR for missile guidance or gun control, using it to scan the radar horizon for incoming sea skimming threats has its efficiency greatly reduced. For that purpose, its has to rely on the SMART-L radar for this purpose, but L-band does not do a good job discriminating and tracking small targets.

The fact that the Type 055's X-band is on top of the mast tower implies that it is the Type 364 replacement. The Type 364 is the secondary search radar you see on every PLAN ship, except for the Houbei which gets its smaller relative.

That X-band has its primary and most important function to search the radar horizon for incoming sea skimmer threats. Unlike the APAR equipped frigates, the Type 055 does not have a SMART-L or any other high mounted search radar to fall back on ---- the superstructure mounted Type 346s have a smaller radar horizon due to their reduced height placement. In fact, it surprised PLAN watchers why the Type 055 --- unlike speculated fan art --- did not have a high mounted L-band search radar. The high mounted radar needs to remain a search radar because this is the radar that is the first line of spotting to an incoming sea skimmer, the primary purpose for the Type 364.

The gunnery radar function has less of an importance and so it can be accorded a lower place in the ship. In fact it may be entirely possible both gunnery and antiship missile targeting can be integrated into one radar, which the Monolit does on the Gorshkov. But one thing for sure, is that the top part of the ship is far too important for a fire control function and should be reserved for a search radar primarily that works all the time, full time, as a vigilant search radar.
 
Last edited:

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Of course you're not "sure". Of course you allegedly think it has the wrong dimensions. Everybody else is sure, but everybody else isn't afraid of recognizing the obvious, unlike you. Because of course if you recognized it you'd then have to admit that you were wrong. Which you are.

Still not sure. 6'o clock low position on the forward superstructure is usually not a place to put an array, because of the potential for back scatter from the rear part of the ship. That is why arrays tend to be placed diagonally on four corners.

That's pretty pathetic to accuse me of assuming, since the Mineral ME radar lies underneath a DOME shape which is visible for all to see regardless of what's underneath. On the other hand I'd like to point out that surface search radars frequently ARE bar-shaped since in this case azimuth is important while altitude is not.

They are bar shaped because they are linear or single element arrays. They are incapable of altitude or vertical scanning.

Are you pretending to be slow or are you actually slow? Who said SPS-67 is S-band? I said that my quote make two of your claims out to be false, that "S-band cannot provide targeting data, and that SPS-67 does not provide fire control for the Burke's main gun." If you had actually bothered to look at the link, which I think you did not because it obviously and dramatically proves you out to be flat out wrong, you would see that the link states SPY-1D provides targeting data for the main gun (it's S-band, and you said S-band doesn't provide targeting data because it's so imprecise, WRONG), and that the link also states SPS-67 provides targeting data for the main gun (you said it didn't, WRONG).

I never really said that S-band is incapable of providing targeting data. But that's for missiles. But when you are dealing with guns at aerial targets, you need much faster tracking updates, much higher resolutions,

SPS-67 is a linear array that is only 2D which by the way is rotational, and didn't you say that you can't use rotating radars for gunnery control? Its surface tracks are combined with the SPY-1D's against ship or surface targets. But it doesn't work on its own, nor is it capable of tracking for elevation and altitude. You tell me how the SPS-67 can tell a gun to shoot a bomber.

All non-fixed arrays can rotate, so your attempted point here is of zero relevance. Also, your claim about SPQ-9 turning "side wards" sounds like something desperately and humorously erroneous that you pulled out of your ass because you couldn't think of anything else to say. I would like to see a legit source describing exactly what you just said. I'm not asking you to further explain yourself, as I am not interested you pretending to know what you are talking about here. I'm asking for a source that is NOT you. Can you provide one or can't you?

In other words you want to prove yourself right because of the absence of open source material on the subject.

spq9b_x_band_radar_NGC.jpg


There are plenty of examples, but the only examples which actually count are the ones that use MFRs since that's the only way radars could even be consolidated in the first place. The Burke currently uses a separate gun FCR, but we will almost certainly see consolidation once the fixed-panel triple X-band arrays start making their way into the class. The Zumwalt is certainly consolidated. Even the Kolkata's MF-STAR (S-band BTW) is used for gunnery control. French, Italian, whupteedoo. They share the same class of frigates, unlike all the examples I've given you.

Yes, they are certainly consolidated, and they also have an extra search radar to fall back on. Though with the Zumwalt that option was taken out due to the cost of SPY-4, and the ship's combat systems has not been commissioned or reached acceptance by the Navy.

Maybe it does. Who cares? I still don't grant you the ability to name it the "main X band radar of the Sov" as if this means anything at all in the context of a ship like the Sov. LOL


LOL These examples don't have a "flawed interpretation" just because a random internet poster who can't man up to his errors claims they do.

The point of consolidation is to save money/manpower/maintenance due to the ability of the MFR to handle increased bandwidths and more varied tasks, which include gun fire control. AESAs are far more flexible as MFRs, but even PESAs with a single or a few transmitters like the SPY-1D and EMPAR are being used as MFRs without anybody (except you) complaining about any alleged "flawed implementation", a term which you cooked up to try and throw into this debate, but which is failing hard in face of something called Complete Lack of Evidence to Support Your Fakeass Claims.

The question is are you going to be tracking for guns while simultaneously volume searching for aerial targets? Can the system multitask multiple modes simultaneously or is it single tasking through multiple modes?

SPY-6 AMDR is going to be most capable naval AESA the US Navy will introduce to their ships, and it is dual band, with S band and X-band. Yet the US Navy plans to have SPQ-9B as a dedicated gun control radar for the Flight III Burke.

Again, this entire section here is predicated on your hypothetical and completely evidenceless claim that using an X-band (or whatever band) radar for gun fire control will reduce its effectiveness in the horizon search role. If the gun control function is consolidated into the MFR, it means that the designers of the radar feel that the radar has no problems handling this capability AND horizon search. In fact, these X-band type MFRs are frequently used in limited volume search as well as horizon search, a far more demanding task than keeping track of a slow ship in the water. In fact the reason these ships usually have something like L-band VSRs is precisely because volume search is taxing on a radar's resources. In comparison assigning a few dozen T/R modules to keep track of a ship that's moving at most 30 knots on the surface (compared to hundreds of knots in 3 dimensions for rapidly maneuvering planes and missiles), is a joke, especially with modern processing algorithms that scrub surface wave artifacts off the radar's contacts.
View attachment 46979

X-band radars are often used for search, especially searching for smaller and faster aerial objects low over the water but the question is whether a single radar should simultaneously do more than one task. You refer to the Kolkata, which also has the Elta 2238 and a Thales radar to do search. These other radars are also in the "high" position of the ship. If the MF-Star goes into fire control, then these other two radars continue to do their search.

I can't say if the designers for the MF-Star is right or not, but I am not going to say if the architects for choosing AMDR+SPQ-9B on the Flight III Burke is right or wrong either. There has to be a reason for still using SPQ-9B for the gun FCR. Or for that matter, why the Type 344 continues to be used as the gun FCR on the Type 052C/D destroyers despite having the Type 346 and Type 364 radars.

Once again, you go back to the problem that the Type 055 doesn't have any other radar in the most important "high" position other than the radar on the mast tower. That's assuming those other and smaller rectangles on the tower are not radars also. If you switch that to gun FC, can it still do horizon search? To what level of degraded efficiency it can still do so, since you would be dividing elements to two different tasks.
 
Last edited:
Top