PLAN invited to participate in RIMPAC for first the time (2014)

ladioussupp said:

Can PLAN send a ship full with ESM/ELINT equipment, although US and coalition Navies may silence RF emissions? If "good faith" is not considered, which men-of-war is the most appropriate candidate?

Click to expand...

MwRYum said:

This level of access PLAN can learn next to nothing valuable - very low level of joint-op, no combat scenario...it's not surprising because to the RIMPAC bloc China is the enemy, or the not-so-explicitly implied OpFor over the years.

In any case, the US never true heartedly want PLAN participation, PLAN might be better off just send observers instead...sail for the Somalia expedition give them more practical experience then whatever they'd be allowed to glean at RIMPAC.

Click to expand...

Well, if the US did not want China there, they would not invite them. Simple as that.

But they did invite them.

So, you guys are missing the whole point.

China should go, they should participate as much as they can and put their best foot forward.

They should seek to gain the trust of these other nations (not just the US) because virtually all of their neighbors in the region will be there.

Going in to try and use ECM and Intelligence to gather "whatever they can," will not do that.

Acting childish, like they have been spurned by simply being invited will not do that either.

As I said, the idea is to gain and win trust so they can become a partner with these other nations in regional security. I hope they do not listen to all this angry talk, and all of this "let's eaves drop" talk, and simply show up there with the best they have, and send the best vessel possible into the exercises.

Jeff Head said:

Going in to try and use ECM and Intelligence to gather "whatever they can," will not do that.

Click to expand...

Aye aye sir. For every practical reasons, PLAN should not send a spy ship there. However, if you were the commander of PLAN, which ship is the most appropriate candidate to participate cooperation such as joint rescue/counter piracy missions and to "observe" publicly as much as she can?

I believe this is a real world question. Not only PLAN should consider it but also US Navy. Maybe US Navy will hand PLAN a clearance list or a black sheep list. And US Navy may request to check PLAN ship before RIMPAC 2014 begins.

Jeff Head said:

Well, if the US did not want China there, they would not invite them. Simple as that.

But they did invite them.

So, you guys are missing the whole point.

China should go, they should participate as much as they can and put their best foot forward.

They should seek to gain the trust of these other nations (not just the US) because virtually all of their neighbors in the region will be there.

Going in to try and use ECM and Intelligence to gather "whatever they can," will not do that.

Acting childish, like they have been spurned by simply being invited will not do that either.

As I said, the idea is to gain and win trust so they can become a partner with these other nations in regional security. I hope they do not listen to all this angry talk, and all of this "let's eaves drop" talk, and simply show up there with the best they have, and send the best vessel possible into the exercises.

Click to expand...

Absolutely, conducting oneself in the manner of building trust should be the thing to do. However, to play devil's advocate, in light of revelations of NSA's activities domestic and abroad, and in light of the constant flame trolling being done by neighbors such as Japan and the Philippines (it's one thing to be in disagreement over issues but another to constantly make some public announcement that doesn't do anything but add fuel to the fire), it's hard not to pose these questions. Who knows if RIMPAC is nothing but a Trojan Horse for the US to deploy their ECM and Intelligence on vessels of other navies, allies included? What if there's a non-participating US sub out there in the waters silently collecting intel? If it's true that the NSA bugged the EU offices, it wouldn't be paranoia to consider this scenario. For any naval participant, sending the best also means exposing your best to potential "eavesdropping".

In light of whatever trust there existed until this recent incident with Snowden, I say sticking with a type 054A is the balance of being cordial but also being cautious. The trust thing took a step forward but then two steps back.

ladioussupp said:

Aye aye sir. For every practical reasons, PLAN should not send a spy ship there. However, if you were the commander of PLAN, which ship is the most appropriate candidate to participate cooperation such as joint rescue/counter piracy missions and to "observe" publicly as much as she can?

I believe this is a real world question. Not only PLAN should consider it but also US Navy. Maybe US Navy will hand PLAN a clearance list or a black sheep list. And US Navy may request to check PLAN ship before RIMPAC 2014 begins.

Click to expand...

there have been plenty of PLAN ships that have made port calls or have been boarded and looked at by USN in the recent years. Obviously, there are certain part of ships that are off limit, but that's the case with every navy.

You are really making this bigger than it actually deserves. Any of the newer ships like 054A or 052B/C would be okay. Remember, there are already cooperation between PLAN and Western navies in Gulf of Aden. If USN is opening itself up for more cooperation, I'd imagine PLAN would at least want put somethng decent out there.

joshuatree said:

Absolutely, conducting oneself in the manner of building trust should be the thing to do. However, to play devil's advocate, in light of revelations of NSA's activities domestic and abroad, and in light of the constant flame trolling being done by neighbors such as Japan and the Philippines (it's one thing to be in disagreement over issues but another to constantly make some public announcement that doesn't do anything but add fuel to the fire), it's hard not to pose these questions. Who knows if RIMPAC is nothing but a Trojan Horse for the US to deploy their ECM and Intelligence on vessels of other navies, allies included? What if there's a non-participating US sub out there in the waters silently collecting intel? If it's true that the NSA bugged the EU offices, it wouldn't be paranoia to consider this scenario. For any naval participant, sending the best also means exposing your best to potential "eavesdropping".

In light of whatever trust there existed until this recent incident with Snowden, I say sticking with a type 054A is the balance of being cordial but also being cautious. The trust thing took a step forward but then two steps back.

Click to expand...

I'm giving you and others are warning on this one. No mention of Snowden/NSA in military topics. We have a Snowden thread. Please put your opinions there. Anything else on this will get deleted.

tphuang super moderator

Perhabs China will send one of the "half breeds" Type 051C to RIMPAC 2014. Armed with S-300 missile's on board its certainly no pushover and the ship won't betray any of China's radar systems and datalinks during the exercise.

Franklin said:

Perhabs China will send one of the "half breeds" Type 051C to RIMPAC 2014. Armed with S-300 missile's on board its certainly no pushover and the ship won't betray any of China's radar systems and datalinks during the exercise.

Click to expand...

Well, I have made it clear that I would love to see the PLAN get ready for it and then send the Liaoning and several escorts on a Pacific cruise in 2014, stopping at RIMPAC on the way to Hawaii and the west Coast (Sand Diego perhaps) afterwards.

They could use one of the escorts, perhaps a Type 054A, in the actual exercises and have the other ships making port call there until they left.

Now, that probably is not going to happen. But it would be neat and...selfishly (hehehe), it would give me a real good reason to go to San Diego next year.

More realistically, send a three ship Task Force. Make one a Type 054A to participate in the exercises, make another a Type 052C or Type 051C. Send one of the newer AOR (supply) vessels along with them to replenish the vessels en route. Perhaps use that group to visit a few more ports as a goodwill measure.

Anyhow, something like this to show that they are serious, not only about joining with these other nations in a security patrnership and the exercises, but that they also are serious about putting a good...and a storng...foot forward to other nations throughout the Pacific.

Jeff Head said:

Well, I have made it clear that I would love to see the PLAN get ready for it and then send the Liaoning and several escorts on a Pacific cruise in 2014, stopping at RIMPAC on the way to Hawaii and the west Coast (Sand Diego perhaps) afterwards.

They could use one of the escorts, perhaps a Type 054A, in the actual exercises and have the other ships making port call there until they left.

Now, that probably is not going to happen. But it would be neat and...selfishly (hehehe), it would give me a real good reason to go to San Diego next year.

More realistically, send a three ship Task Force. Make one a Type 054A to participate in the exercises, make another a Type 052C or Type 051C. Send one of the newer AOR (supply) vessels along with them to replenish the vessels en route. Perhaps use that group to visit a few more ports as a goodwill measure.

Anyhow, something like this to show that they are serious, not only about joining with these other nations in a security patrnership and the exercises, but that they also are serious about putting a good...and a storng...foot forward to other nations throughout the Pacific.

Click to expand...

It's unlikely the Liaoning would be ready, though. It would be embarrassing to show up with a rookie complement and an incomplete J-15 airwing bearing the high risk of accidents than not show up at all.

SinoSoldier said:

It's unlikely the Liaoning would be ready, though. It would be embarrassing to show up with a rookie complement and an incomplete J-15 airwing bearing the high risk of accidents than not to show up at all.

Click to expand...

Yes, as I said, it is much less likely for the Liaoning. But heck, as a goodwill visit, and bringing along 5-6 J-15s with their best pilots, by that time it is possible that they could make a good showing...and it would send a good strong message.

And...hehehe, as I said, I would sure love it oif they came all the way to the US West Coast.

Anyhow, more likely a smaller task force, but one with new vessels and strong capability. That would send the right message all around and be a great opportunity for stronger and closer cooperation in the future.

RIMPAC 2016 this should be the line up from China

Liaoning carrier full load of aircraft and helos
3 x Type 054A FFG
2 x Type 052C DDG
1 x Type 093 SSN
1 x Type 903 Replenishment tanker

That's 8 vessals, this is followed by a world tour! to say hello....