PLAN Catapult Development Thread, News, etc.

kroko

Senior Member
However, I have a counter-proposal for that, which is that they could have designed 002 in such a way where the space needed for relevant subsystems for either a steam catapult or EM catapult could be designed into the ship's relevant compartments in the most optimal way so that they can construct the ship up to a certain point before integrating the relevant subsystems in. I expect the keel of the ship and the lower decks of the ship will be more or less the same between 002 whether it uses steam or EM cat. The question is whether the ship's propulsion will differ between whether it uses steam or EM cat -- obviously steam cats will use steam derived from the ship's boilers, but an EM cat will have to use generators.

I dont want to go OT, but i dont agree with this theory. Im not a naval engineer, but i think that when you change a large and complex component that connects with the rest of the ship like a catapult, you are bound to mess with the rest of the ship. A diferent type of catapult impacts the propulsion, which in turn impacts something (a lot) else, and so on. This is not an plane, which you can change avionics and even engines without a lot of problems. IMO, before you start to build something as complex as an aircraft carrier, you must know at least what the main components will be.

If anything, the fact that they're extending this at a dedicated naval air training facility suggests to me that these two systems are meant for a high pace of use rather than tinkering with R&D.

Not necessarly. They may not have a dedicated R&D facility just to catapults, and just decided to add it to the training facilty.
 

delft

Brigadier
This is not an plane, which you can change avionics and even engines without a lot of problems.
There are planes where replacing engines is not too difficult and many where it is just impossible. A ship is a much larger object where designing her to make a late choice is much easier.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Not necessarly. They may not have a dedicated R&D facility just to catapults, and just decided to add it to the training facilty.

They do have dedicated R&D facility near Shanghai for EMAL research and it is confirm as the institute where Ma Weiming work. As for Steam cat they bought Melbourne carrier from Australia with the steam cat intact. They definitely dismantle it and studied it to death . I am not surprise if they set up lab somewhere to study the parameter of the cat. Improve it and modernized it

You were here for long time but never notice it? come on man!
click on one of the link that I provide
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/plan-catapult-development-thread-news-etc.t5839/page-3

Here is Wiki take on the Melbourne connection to China catobar program
ex-HMAS Melbourne
Main article:
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Chinese reverse-engineered a land-based replica of the steam catapult and landing system from that of
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, and a
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was used to conduct take-off and landing trials on the land-based flight deck in April 1987, which was not finally confirmed officially until 27 years later in April 2014 by
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.
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Both the take-off and landing were conducted on the same day, and the test pilot was
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pilot Li Guoqiang (李国强).
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The experience gained was applied to the
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.
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I dont want to go OT, but i dont agree with this theory. Im not a naval engineer, but i think that when you change a large and complex component that connects with the rest of the ship like a catapult, you are bound to mess with the rest of the ship. A diferent type of catapult impacts the propulsion, which in turn impacts something (a lot) else, and so on. This is not an plane, which you can change avionics and even engines without a lot of problems. IMO, before you start to build something as complex as an aircraft carrier, you must know at least what the main components will be.

In this case they technically already know what the main components will be -- i.e.: the relevant subsystems for either an EM catapult or steam catapult. The question is whether the propulsion will be impacted at all, and as I wrote in my previous post this may or may not be the case, which will have consequences for whether they can start construction of the ship (especially its lower decks) before the catapult decision has been made.

Now, I personally do not strongly think this is necessarily the case (it seems like a bit of a stretch to me as well), but this is one of the explanations for how 002 construction can already have said to have begun despite the catapult not being selected yet.


Not necessarly. They may not have a dedicated R&D facility just to catapults, and just decided to add it to the training facilty.

No, I think that is quite unlikely.
R&D and prototype testing are the sort of thing you want to do at sites which are not very isolated, which have amenities and accessibility for scientists and researchers and engineers to work at for a prolonged period. At the very least, conducting very early stage R&D at a relatively isolated location like Huangdicun NATF is eyebrow raising to say the least.
If they really did want to conduct very early stage R&D, it would make much more sense to have a dedicated site to do it from instead of a NATF. Remember as well that this NATF is a busy and important training location as well, not exactly something whose purpose you want to complicate by doing early stage R&D at, if it can be done much more simply and less unobtrusively at other separate sites around the country. So do I believe the reason for having the catapults at the NATF is very much a deliberate decision made on the basis about the expected use and maturity of these catapults at such an operationally location.

And come on, kroko, I get that you're a skeptic towards almost all things PLA, but even you've been around here long enough to know that Chinese catapult R&D began many years ago and it makes no sense for R&D to only "begin" now...
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I think that the Chinese have made their decision on what the 001A will have...clearly STOBAR.

I personally believe that they have already made the decision on 002 as well. It will be a conventionally powered CATOBAR carrier and I think it most likely that there will be two of them built with steam catapults.
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I believe that EMALs will come along on 003.

But that is just my read as a result of what I have observed as the Chinese methodical way of moving forward and bringing new designs (for them) forward with as little risk as possible so that they can perfect the operation before moving on.

That's why I believed from the beginning that there would be two STOBARs, two CATOBAR conventional cariers, and that they would reach their long term design with 003 which would be CATOBAR nuclear, with EMALs.

Will they put the EMALs on 002...it is possibkle. There is no doubt they have been researching both. I just personally believe that they will decrease risk by going CATOBAR conventional for 002, and then bringing nuclear and EMALs on to 003. They have plenty of time to do that and get it right.

But, time will tell...as always.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I think that the Chinese have made their decision on what the 001A will have...clearly STOBAR.

I personally believe that they have already made the decision on 002 as well. It will be a conventionally powered CATOBAR carrier and I think it most likely that there will be two of them built with steam catapults.
.
I believe that EMALs will come along on 003.

But that is just my read as a result of what I have observed as the Chinese methodical way of moving forward and bringing new designs (for them) forward with as little risk as possible so that they can perfect the operation before moving on.

That's why I believed from the beginning that there would be two STOBARs, two CATOBAR conventional cariers, and that they would reach their long term design with 003 which would be CATOBAR nuclear, with EMALs.

Will they put the EMALs on 002...it is possibkle. There is no doubt they have been researching both. I just personally believe that they will decrease risk by going CATOBAR conventional for 002, and then bringing nuclear and EMALs on to 003. They have plenty of time to do that and get it right.

But, time will tell...as always.
I would argue that China tends to take technological development one step at a time if the basic technologies are iterative of one another, but if the base technologies are different they will pursue parallel development, and then select one based on readiness. EMALS would be the latter, so I'm quite confident that if EMALS is (or was) ready by the time they finalize(d) 002's design they would have no reluctance going with that over steam. Just my two cents.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I would argue that China tends to take technological development one step at a time if the basic technologies are iterative of one another, but if the base technologies are different they will pursue parallel development, and then select one based on readiness. EMALS would be the latter, so I'm quite confident that if EMALS is (or was) ready by the time they finalize(d) 002's design they would have no reluctance going with that over steam. Just my two cents.

I agree. We can clearly see that the two catapults being installed at Huangdicun are of different configurations based on their geometry, and the rumours are saying that it's a competition of steam vs EM cat for 002.

Combine that with Rear Admiral Ma's statements of confidence about his EM cat project over the last year or so, along with some recent and deliberately vague statements by fzgfzy that 002's construction schedule may be "delayed" based on "competing schemes" makes me think that the first 002 may well possibly be lined up for being equipped with EM cat.

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latenlazy

Brigadier
I agree. We can clearly see that the two catapults being installed at Huangdicun are of different configurations based on their geometry, and the rumours are saying that it's a competition of steam vs EM cat for 002.

Combine that with Rear Admiral Ma's statements of confidence about his EM cat project over the last year or so, along with some recent and deliberately vague statements by fzgfzy that 002's construction schedule may be "delayed" based on "competing schemes" makes me think that the first 002 may well possibly be lined up for being equipped with EM cat.

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The other thing to note is that from the body of technologies we've seen China master, they've been able to consistently close gaps in electrical engineering much faster than mechanical engineering or material sciences. It's really the latter fields they've been slowest to overcome.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I would argue that China tends to take technological development one step at a time if the basic technologies are iterative of one another, but if the base technologies are different they will pursue parallel development, and then select one based on readiness. EMALS would be the latter, so I'm quite confident that if EMALS is (or was) ready by the time they finalize(d) 002's design they would have no reluctance going with that over steam. Just my two cents.
...and you may well be right.

I personally believe, at this stage, and if 002 is conventional in particular, that they will pick the safer route for the conventionally powered carrier and go steam.

But I could easily be proven wrong.
 
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