PLAN Carrier Strike Group and Airwing

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

Jeff Head said:

...at the time the former Varyag launches, there will be no Type 052D to escort her. But there will be 3-4 Type 052Cs.

One day what you say will most likely be true, but it will be a few years before there are more Ds than Cs.

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You got a point there; since the Varyag serves as a training ship, it will most likely receive less advanced escorts. That would mean its undersea escorts will be the noisy Type 093s as well.

We should expect the Type 052D destroyers, Type 054B frigates, and Type 095 SSNs to escort the future Type 089s or Type 085s.

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

Bltizo said:

052C's a great ship... and we won't see 052D in service for a good five years at the minimum if the 2012 construction date is correct.

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The Type 052C might as well serve as lunch for those Arleigh Burkes.

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

SinoSoldier said:

You got a point there; since the Varyag serves as a training ship, it will most likely receive less advanced escorts. That would mean its undersea escorts will be the noisy Type 093s as well.

We should expect the Type 052D destroyers, Type 054B frigates, and Type 095 SSNs to escort the future Type 089s or Type 085s.

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The Varyag will be a "training" carrier to the extent that she is the firstvand will train the entire PLAN on the use, procedures, policy, and doctrine of carrier operations and it's force projection...but make no mistake, shemwill also be sully functional and armed Capitol ship of the PLAN and will be afforded the best protection they have.

Right now and when she is launched that will mean 052Cs, which are not bad vessels in their own right...better than most nation's navies. The Varyag strike group will most definitely represent the best the PLAN can field, and will the something the Chinese people will be proud of and crow about.

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

Jeff Head said:

The Varyag will be a "training" carrier to the extent that she is the firstvand will train the entire PLAN on the use, procedures, policy, and doctrine of carrier operations and it's force projection...but make no mistake, shemwill also be sully functional and armed Capitol ship of the PLAN and will be afforded the best protection they have.

Right now and when she is launched that will mean 052Cs, which are not bad vessels in their own right...better than most nation's navies. The Varyag strike group will most definitely represent the best the PLAN can field, and will the something the Chinese people will be proud of and crow about.

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Having a training ship as a capital ship? That sounds rather unsafe and uneconomical to me. My guess is that also Varyag can be used on missions, it will mainly be in dock (or in surrounding waters) while carrier pilots train on it.

I highly doubt, with the extent of the modifications done to the Varyag, that it will be a front line PLAN vessel or even a patrol vessel. Think of it as a giant floating school. This leads me to believe, since the Varyag won't probably be deployed that often, that it would not get China's front line defense system.

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

SinoSoldier said:

Having a training ship as a capital ship? That sounds rather unsafe and uneconomical to me. My guess is that also Varyag can be used on missions, it will mainly be in dock (or in surrounding waters) while carrier pilots train on it.

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They didn't install all those sensors and ciws for nothing... It will be a carrier in its own right and definitely not a dedicated training ship. When it has a full airwing and the necessary escorts, if a crisis abroad occurs then you can bet the PLAN will send it over (like the Libya evacuation mission the 054A frigate took part in a few months back)

I highly doubt, with the extent of the modifications done to the Varyag, that it will be a front line PLAN vessel or even a patrol vessel. Think of it as a giant floating school. This leads me to believe, since the Varyag won't probably be deployed that often, that it would not get China's front line defense system.

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See above.
Are you saying that when it enters service within a year or so it won't have 052C or 054A as escorts but... 051 and 053 instead? Because 052C and 054A will certainly be the best the PLAN will have at the time and for the forseeable future.

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

Bltizo said:

They didn't install all those sensors and ciws for nothing... It will be a carrier in its own right and definitely not a dedicated training ship. When it has a full airwing and the necessary escorts, if a crisis abroad occurs then you can bet the PLAN will send it over (like the Libya evacuation mission the 054A frigate took part in a few months back)

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Training requires crew to handle live equipment. That's why they installed the CIWS and sensors. It can also come useful should the carrier be called to emergency situations. It will be a carrier, but it will mainly be a training one. A refitted Varyag can hardly compete with other contemporary carriers, thus its only effective role is to train crew and perhaps doing some close proximity patrolling.

A crisis like Libya will not require the deployment of full escorts and defenses.

Bltizo said:

See above.
Are you saying that when it enters service within a year or so it won't have 052C or 054A as escorts but... 051 and 053 instead? Because 052C and 054A will certainly be the best the PLAN will have at the time and for the forseeable future.

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I'm saying that Type 052Cs and Type 054As won't be completely devoted to the Varyag at all. We only have six Type 052Cs planned and twelve Type 054As planned. Do you really think they would sacrifice their newest ships just for the sake of escorting an outdated carrier that will not even see any major action?

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

SinoSoldier said:

Training requires crew to handle live equipment. That's why they installed the CIWS and sensors. It can also come useful should the carrier be called to emergency situations. It will be a carrier, but it will mainly be a training one. A refitted Varyag can hardly compete with other contemporary carriers, thus its only effective role is to train crew and perhaps doing some close proximity patrolling.

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Serious? When it enters service it will be the most capable non nuclear or even non USN carrier in the world... until maybe the QE class comes out.
The ciws and sensors are not just for training.

A crisis like Libya will not require the deployment of full escorts and defenses.

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Not something on that scale, but the size of the Varyag and the aviation assets it has will be useful.

I'm saying that Type 052Cs and Type 054As won't be completely devoted to the Varyag at all. We only have six Type 052Cs planned and twelve Type 054As planned. Do you really think they would sacrifice their newest ships just for the sake of escorting an outdated carrier that will not even see any major action?

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Only six 052Cs?? That's equivalent to the six Type 45s the RN will have... no small fleet and they can easily spare two 052Cs and 054As are enough to escort Varyag and in a crisis it will be certainly worth it. I mean we don't expect the Varyag to go on USN style carrier patrols in the near future so the PLAN won't be commiting too many vessels at one time anyway.
The so called out dated carrier will be one of the PLAN's premier power projection tool for the next few decades... at ~60,000 tons, carrying anywhere from 24 to ~40 flankers and helicopters... sure it might be a bit outdated, it might have a ski jump rather than catapults... but it will be very very capable and better than anything else any Asian or even European navy will have to offer when it reaches FOC.

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

Bltizo said:

Serious? When it enters service it will be the most capable non nuclear or even non USN carrier in the world... until maybe the QE class comes out.
The ciws and sensors are not just for training.

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A refitted 1960s ship (with no modern launching systems and probably outdated hull) that is the "best non-nuclear or non-US carrier" in service? Don't kid me --
I'd rather go with the De Gaulle.

Bltizo said:

Not something on that scale, but the size of the Varyag and the aviation assets it has will be useful.

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But then it wouldn't be used to its full potential.

Bltizo said:

Only six 052Cs?? That's equivalent to the six Type 45s the RN will have... no small fleet and they can easily spare two 052Cs and 054As are enough to escort Varyag and in a crisis it will be certainly worth it. I mean we don't expect the Varyag to go on USN style carrier patrols in the near future so the PLAN won't be commiting too many vessels at one time anyway.
The so called out dated carrier will be one of the PLAN's premier power projection tool for the next few decades... at ~60,000 tons, carrying anywhere from 24 to ~40 flankers and helicopters... sure it might be a bit outdated, it might have a ski jump rather than catapults... but it will be very very capable and better than anything else any Asian or even European navy will have to offer when it reaches FOC.

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When they have six of the Type 052Cs and three fleets, sparing two is no small deal.

The fact that the Varyag won't be deployed on big missions is exactly the rationale for not giving it an "AEGIS umbrella" that will definitely require Type 052Cs.

I don't see anything that puts the Varyag ahead of any other country's carriers.

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

SinoSoldier said:

A refitted 1960s ship (with no modern launching systems and probably outdated hull) that is the "best non-nuclear or non-US carrier" in service? Don't kid me --
I'd rather go with the De Gaulle.

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Yeah cause the Varyag was built in the 1960s.
And how can a hull be outdated..? Unless you're talking about corrosion and the like, but it's not as if the Varyag had a long and lengthy service history
Old ships get refit all the time. Look at the Admiarl Gorshkov for India. Ex USN frigates and destroyers get transferred to the US's allied countries too. Go figure.

But then it wouldn't be used to its full potential.

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It will also be used for defending China's sea lanes of communications in times of crisis...

When they have six of the Type 052Cs and three fleets, sparing two is no small deal.

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When one of those fleets will almost revolve around the carrier in future, then it's a logical trade.

The fact that the Varyag won't be deployed on big missions is exactly the rationale for not giving it an "AEGIS umbrella" that will definitely require Type 052Cs.

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Just because you won't be sending it on "big missions" doesn't mean you leave it alone to rot, or give it cruddy escorts. Now I don't know enough about USN carrier escort operations, to say, but what's the minimum number of escorts for a CVN? From there you can scale to what the PLAN might give for the Varyag.

I don't see anything that puts the Varyag ahead of any other country's carriers.

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So... the Varyag is comparable to the 11000 ton HTMS Chakri Naruebet then?



The Varyag's sheer size puts it leagues ahead of almost every other nation's carrier in the world -- A lot can be put on ~60,000 tons worth of carrier, larger than all apart from USN ones and slightly under the future QE class, whose future is looking increasingly dicey with the month.

Re: The PICs every PLAN enthusiast is waiting for

SinoSoldier said:

Training requires crew to handle live equipment. That's why they installed the CIWS and sensors. It can also come useful should the carrier be called to emergency situations. It will be a carrier, but it will mainly be a training one. A refitted Varyag can hardly compete with other contemporary carriers, thus its only effective role is to train crew and perhaps doing some close proximity patrolling.

A crisis like Libya will not require the deployment of full escorts and defenses.




I'm saying that Type 052Cs and Type 054As won't be completely devoted to the Varyag at all. We only have six Type 052Cs planned and twelve Type 054As planned. Do you really think they would sacrifice their newest ships just for the sake of escorting an outdated carrier that will not even see any major action?

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Varyag is a "starter kit" of sort for PLAN into the carrier ops, the cradle for all future core elements of their carrier ops personnel, not so much for actual missions, though low intensity ops like those off the coast of Somalia or disaster relief would naturally served as ideal "training lessons".

You can't have a carrier on call for crisis if you only got just one, no doubt China is making preparations for a future that'd allow them to enjoy such luxury - 3 carriers at least, including the Varyag - but in order to have that much of a manpower base to operate such a fleet that's where the Varyag will be.

And even just a "training ship", the training will definitely involve full range of carrier strike group activities, very likely including the carrier serves as the command ship as well (not everybody can be like the USN to have dedicated ship for that task), they might just as well have a fully operational carrier for that.

In short, during the Varyag's future career, if she's not in the maintenance cycle, she'd undoubtedly spend 80% or more of her time as an all-aspect training platform, the rest will be filled for other events - diplomatic missions, humanitarian missions...what about go to war? Not likely but I'd still leave a 1% for it just in case.

For the 052C and 054As, their purpose of course not just to served the escort elements of the carrier group, more so to replace the obsolete elements within the fleet, or other "experimental models" that came before them, all in all these 2 are and will be the standard models for the fleet in the foreseeable future. It'd definitely help to standardize the logistics and simplify the training regimen.