Eh, the PLA could probably had a Zircon equivalent much earlier, but likely choose not to, as they weren't satisfied with some specs.
Like, if the Zircon is a 1st gen HCM, the ones China is fielding could be seen as 2nd gen.
PLAN Anti-ship/surface missiles
- Thread starter tphuang
- Start date
Like, if the Zircon is a 1st gen HCM, the ones China is fielding could be seen as 2nd gen.
What he means is that the fact you were talking about it just came across as a bit unnecessary because everyone already knew the PLA had such projects at minimum in late stages of testing/development if not already in service, considering these projects would have been initiated years ago.
The lesson being "maybe be less vocal about payload/platform/weapons anxieties"
FriedRiceNSpice
Major
I was under the impression that they have been working on that one for quite some while, but I guess they must've sped the development process upon seeing your request.
For what its worth, you were correct in your judgment that the fact that only a single YJ-12 could be carried by a Flanker was a major enough limitation for a successor system to be developed. I would not have expected such a system to be a very high priority (relative to hypersonic systems, when it comes air-launched missiles). It's amazing to see that China now has the sufficient R&D base to be working on such a diverse and complete variety of systems concurrently.
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YJ-12 was sort of the land, air and sea launched supersonic cruise missile that performed anti-surface and anti-ship roles. Land and sea based YJ-12 range should be around 500km (although we heard in past true range is longer) while air launched should be more if booster is the same but air launched booster might be smaller or different so air launched YJ-12 range could be comparable to the ship and land launched version. We've never seen a J-15 carry YJ-12. So while India's air launched Brahmos is Su-30MKI carried only. China's YJ-12 air launched version has only been carried by H-6. Both H-6 and Su-30MKI are land based aircraft.
Now YJ-15 can be considered a carrier based launched supersonic missile since it supposedly can be J-15 launched and the size does look considerably shorter and slightly thinner than YJ-12 and Brahmos. this gives the missile much more range and flexibility of use.
But air launched Brahmos is highest end in Indian service. China has hypersonic cruise missiles that can be sea, air and land launched. Hypersonic glide missiles too and hypersonic cruise and/or glide that as of now confirmed at least 6 types overall (DF-16, H-6 ALBM, DF-17, DF-27, YJ-17, YJ-20) that can be sea, air and land launched. Now also has YJ-15 that can be ship and air launched as another smaller supersonic cruise missile that probably retains similar range as the larger ones - YJ-12. Let's not forget all the stealth cruise missiles in PLA service. We haven't counted the anti-ship ballistic missiles DF-21D and DF-26 or the near hypersonic DF-100 cruise missile.
They will also have smaller supersonic cruise missiles replacing YJ-15 as YJ-15 is supposedly acting as stop-gap for carrier fighter launched supersonic anti-ship missile. All of this is many leagues higher than what India has managed to do with a joint venture of a Soviet missile the P-800 Oniks derived Brahmos. We wont even bother counting the numbers in service and the manufacturing rate.
Also YJ-12 numbers are numerously more than Brahmos. India required Russian parts for Brahmos still. YJ-12 can be pumped out at whatever rate desired. We haven't even gotten into the aircraft numbers and capabilities gap between India and China. It is not a comparison. It is a comical comparison, gapped greater than 1990 China and 2025 US.
China has all types covered, 3 times over at least, with higher production rate, lower costs most likely and has tiers of higher level weapons the others don't even have... except the US and Russia who have a few of the arsenal China has already fielded.
Now YJ-15 can be considered a carrier based launched supersonic missile since it supposedly can be J-15 launched and the size does look considerably shorter and slightly thinner than YJ-12 and Brahmos. this gives the missile much more range and flexibility of use.
But air launched Brahmos is highest end in Indian service. China has hypersonic cruise missiles that can be sea, air and land launched. Hypersonic glide missiles too and hypersonic cruise and/or glide that as of now confirmed at least 6 types overall (DF-16, H-6 ALBM, DF-17, DF-27, YJ-17, YJ-20) that can be sea, air and land launched. Now also has YJ-15 that can be ship and air launched as another smaller supersonic cruise missile that probably retains similar range as the larger ones - YJ-12. Let's not forget all the stealth cruise missiles in PLA service. We haven't counted the anti-ship ballistic missiles DF-21D and DF-26 or the near hypersonic DF-100 cruise missile.
They will also have smaller supersonic cruise missiles replacing YJ-15 as YJ-15 is supposedly acting as stop-gap for carrier fighter launched supersonic anti-ship missile. All of this is many leagues higher than what India has managed to do with a joint venture of a Soviet missile the P-800 Oniks derived Brahmos. We wont even bother counting the numbers in service and the manufacturing rate.
Also YJ-12 numbers are numerously more than Brahmos. India required Russian parts for Brahmos still. YJ-12 can be pumped out at whatever rate desired. We haven't even gotten into the aircraft numbers and capabilities gap between India and China. It is not a comparison. It is a comical comparison, gapped greater than 1990 China and 2025 US.
China has all types covered, 3 times over at least, with higher production rate, lower costs most likely and has tiers of higher level weapons the others don't even have... except the US and Russia who have a few of the arsenal China has already fielded.
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I'm not sure if a J-15 can land with a YJ-12 on a carrier or need to jettison it if not used. If so, It's normal to not see J-15 with that payload unless in a war scenario or from a land base.
Sticking with what's known, the YJ-12 isn't on any other PLA fighter and never been spotted on a fighter so probably not J-15 carry-able.
My post was mainly to point out that China's anti-surface and anti-ship arsenal FAR exceeds a 500km to 1000km range supersonic cruise missile. That stuff is late Cold War era game. Brahmos is not some impressive weapon. In fact weapons like SCALP, LRASM, NSM and derivatives of the AKF-98 are often as effective or more so. India hasn't got its own supersonic cruise or stealth cruise missile or any active hypersonic glide or cruise missiles. China has multiple generations of the above including a LRASM/NSM equivalent now.
YJ-12 is thoroughly legacy these days but performs an important role. It's also overwhelming overkill for pretty much any nation that isn't the US. The Japanese navy cannot survive an onslaught of 1000s of YJ-12s coming from sea surface, sub-surface and air at the same time.
Dude, why bring India into the discussion?
Another thing to note is that while India just approached Russia to joint develop an Indian version of the P-800 Oniks, well before this time (early 2000s) Russia already offered China the P-800 Oniks missile which China rejected.
Over a decade before India approached Russia to co-develop the Brahmos, China already purchased and used the Russian Kh-31 which it indigenised in the 1990s into the YJ-91 anti-radiation missile. During this era China also purchased Sovremenny Class destroyers mainly for the P-270 Moskit missile. PLA considered buying Tu-22Ms for Kh-32 missile, thinking of fielding some tiny numbers of Sov class with Moskit and Tu-22 with Kh-32 could discourage USN. This was the backup, conventional plan for the 2010s period of Chinese A2AD strategy.
The parallel strategy (think Su-35 being conventional and J-20 being domestic parallel) for A2AD was based on making DF-21 into a MaRV capable missile that can be guided to target and hit moving, high digital resilience targets. This was far more promising. Chinese warships focusing on AD and limited anti-surface was also more promising than the Sov class + Tu-22M combo. Move 20 years ahead and here we are. A2AD based on high tier (not just MaRV) hypersonics launched from all platforms backed by conventional supersonic anti-ship and stealth anti-ship missiles. Stronger sensor network and integrated AD than Soviet/Russian strategy for warships. Instead of Tu-22M launching Kh-32 we have H-6 (slower by a mile) launching YJ-18 (Kalibr family derived), YJ-12 and YJ-21 (before the new hypersonics revealed recently). Domestic course delivered. The 1980s and 1990s Chinese military leadership could not have realised how much better domestic industries would turn out.
As for the Brahmos and YJ-12 story. Well India started receiving Russian built Brahmos in late 2000s. China designed the YJ-12 as a culmination of experience with the CSS-C-6 aka C-301 or HY-3 missile program, the Soviet Kh-31 missile, and the P-270 Moskit. That's three types of rocket boosted ramjet powered supersonic cruise missiles going back more than two decades before the Brahmos was even on paper. YJ-12 is the culmination of 30 years of playing around and testing various types and lineages of ramjet powered cruise missiles. The Oniks derivative was rejected by China back in the 2000s if not earlier.
When Indians say Brahmos is 900km and mach 3, well Chinese DF-21D is >1500km range and mach 10 against moving target, DF-26 is 5000km range and mach 20 against moving target, DF-17 is >3000km range and >mach 5 at terminal, DF-27 is probably >5000km and >mach 10 as a IRBM based anti-ship HGV. YJ-19 is at least >1000km ranged HCM. YJ-17 is at least >1000km HGV. These are not even all of the top tier missiles. All self produced at whatever rate and numbers required.
Space, air, sea, land, sub-surface platforms, every single one, all communicate, share, guide, target, feed and contribute to the sensor and shooter network. A HALE drones' radar and space based remote sensing platform can spot a stealthy target anywhere weapons can reach, a stealth fighter or CCA can verify, a ship can launch, another drone can guide. Every combination has been there, iterated, improved. India can barely feed Brahmos missile with mid course guidance from other platforms until recently.
I don't see the comparison between Brahmos and YJ-12 without understanding the force and weight behind them.
Over a decade before India approached Russia to co-develop the Brahmos, China already purchased and used the Russian Kh-31 which it indigenised in the 1990s into the YJ-91 anti-radiation missile. During this era China also purchased Sovremenny Class destroyers mainly for the P-270 Moskit missile. PLA considered buying Tu-22Ms for Kh-32 missile, thinking of fielding some tiny numbers of Sov class with Moskit and Tu-22 with Kh-32 could discourage USN. This was the backup, conventional plan for the 2010s period of Chinese A2AD strategy.
The parallel strategy (think Su-35 being conventional and J-20 being domestic parallel) for A2AD was based on making DF-21 into a MaRV capable missile that can be guided to target and hit moving, high digital resilience targets. This was far more promising. Chinese warships focusing on AD and limited anti-surface was also more promising than the Sov class + Tu-22M combo. Move 20 years ahead and here we are. A2AD based on high tier (not just MaRV) hypersonics launched from all platforms backed by conventional supersonic anti-ship and stealth anti-ship missiles. Stronger sensor network and integrated AD than Soviet/Russian strategy for warships. Instead of Tu-22M launching Kh-32 we have H-6 (slower by a mile) launching YJ-18 (Kalibr family derived), YJ-12 and YJ-21 (before the new hypersonics revealed recently). Domestic course delivered. The 1980s and 1990s Chinese military leadership could not have realised how much better domestic industries would turn out.
As for the Brahmos and YJ-12 story. Well India started receiving Russian built Brahmos in late 2000s. China designed the YJ-12 as a culmination of experience with the CSS-C-6 aka C-301 or HY-3 missile program, the Soviet Kh-31 missile, and the P-270 Moskit. That's three types of rocket boosted ramjet powered supersonic cruise missiles going back more than two decades before the Brahmos was even on paper. YJ-12 is the culmination of 30 years of playing around and testing various types and lineages of ramjet powered cruise missiles. The Oniks derivative was rejected by China back in the 2000s if not earlier.
When Indians say Brahmos is 900km and mach 3, well Chinese DF-21D is >1500km range and mach 10 against moving target, DF-26 is 5000km range and mach 20 against moving target, DF-17 is >3000km range and >mach 5 at terminal, DF-27 is probably >5000km and >mach 10 as a IRBM based anti-ship HGV. YJ-19 is at least >1000km ranged HCM. YJ-17 is at least >1000km HGV. These are not even all of the top tier missiles. All self produced at whatever rate and numbers required.
Space, air, sea, land, sub-surface platforms, every single one, all communicate, share, guide, target, feed and contribute to the sensor and shooter network. A HALE drones' radar and space based remote sensing platform can spot a stealthy target anywhere weapons can reach, a stealth fighter or CCA can verify, a ship can launch, another drone can guide. Every combination has been there, iterated, improved. India can barely feed Brahmos missile with mid course guidance from other platforms until recently.
I don't see the comparison between Brahmos and YJ-12 without understanding the force and weight behind them.
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Soz. I felt the previous mentions of Brahmos on this thread to justify pointing out there is zero comparison between Brahmos and YJ-12. Plenty of people don't know any details or the context. Not only are they incomparable as individual weapon systems (the YJ-12 is infinitely better networked and supported) with a far deeper history and chain of legacy developments and experiences in similar weapons before Brahmos but want to point out while Brahmos is India's best, YJ-12 isn't even China's top 8 for anti-surface/ship in just isolated overall mechanical performance.
Forum has plenty of less "educated" members who probably are unaware that YJ-12 doesn't exist in a vacuum. It is the product of the entire CSS-C-6 domestic program for ramjet powered supersonic cruise missile and combined experience with the Soviet Kh-31 and P-270 Moskit ramjet powered supersonic cruise missiles. Brahmos isn't even Indian! They still can't make the entire thing themselves.
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It's not just a matter of fighter jets carrying it (although that is also a major issue). The trio mentioned the logistical problems associated with the YJ-12. Transporting, loading, and unloading such a large missile on an aircraft carrier is a cumbersome tasks, especially when weighing the benefits.
BTW, the trio specifically mentioned that the YJ-15 is outperforms the YJ-12.
After all, the YJ-12 is a missile that is nearly 20 years old.