PLAN Anti-ship/surface missiles

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
The HD-1 supersonic cruise missile. Due to its small size and weight, HD-1 can be launched from small surface ships and light fighters such as the JF-17. The HD-1 is capable of sea skimming at 5-10 meters, which coupled with its high speed, makes it difficult to intercept by ship-based air defense systems. Moreover, the missile has good air defense suppression capabilities, since it can be launched well outside enemy air defense zones. When launched at high altitudes, the HD-1 can cover a distance of more than 300km.

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By what definition is this is a small and light missile? It has a launch weight of 2,200 kg! That's YJ-18 territory, or just a bit less than YJ-12. Quite a feat for a 12t MTOW aircraft like JF-17 to take off with one of these "small size" cruise missiles and have enough range to do something useful with it. Give us a source for your highly suspect claims or please stop polluting this thread with disinformation.
 
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Suetham

Senior Member
Registered Member
AFAIK, LRASM does not have an active radar seeker.

In fact, such information has not yet been released. What is known is that LRASM will use the imager to classify and identify the target but that doesn't preclude having a radar for engagement, which would be very useful in case of bad weather or the target implements IRCMs.

There are many references to the existence of a radar in LRASM and it would operate actively (like a radar) and passively, combining the same antenna. By confirming the LRASM having a radar it is capable of itself being the active transmitter of the ECM.

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nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
In fact, such information has not yet been released. What is known is that LRASM will use the imager to classify and identify the target but that doesn't preclude having a radar for engagement, which would be very useful in case of bad weather or the target implements IRCMs.

There are many references to the existence of a radar in LRASM and it would operate actively (like a radar) and passively, combining the same antenna. By confirming the LRASM having a radar it is capable of itself being the active transmitter of the ECM.

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Your source is a blog?

The new seeker that BAE was recently contracted for LRASM, has no mention of active radar:
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The news item from Janes reaffirms what was already disclosed: LRASM has a multimode passive RF and IIR seeker.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Yes, if a surface ship has powerful enough radars, it can detect the LASM as soon as it reaches the radar horizon, but in the scenario where the surface ship is isolated from the task force, it cannot engage with relative success. on account of the missile's characteristics.

Q. How often will a ship be operating isolated?
A. Within the 1st and 2nd Island Chain, Chinese ships should always be under some form of AWACs cover or be part of a surface group.

As the launch will take place beyond the horizon, it is difficult for the target to be sure it is under attack, even because an aircraft like the P-8 or a Global Hawk can use passive sensors and may be outside the target ship's radar range, not to mention on American satellites equipped with synthetic aperture radars, with the potential to assign targets to ships. As for the LRSM sensors to alert the target, as I said, it should use a combination of active and passive sensors and would only use radar in case of bad weather or some infrared countermeasure.

As it is a sea-skimming missile, in the terminal phase it flies at low altitude, maneuvers and starts interfering with radar using ECM. A missile like the LRASM can create one or more fake missiles to circumvent the defensive radar system, using its ECM capability, and can even penetrate the defenses of an aircraft carrier depending on the airborne configuration of each CSG, but it is such a good missile as a supersonic to penetrate the point defenses of isolated ships. The missile addresses characteristics of sea-skimming, stealth, great maneuverability and a huge potential to operate autonomously.

How much ECM can a small missile actually generate?
It is very difficult to spoof modern AESAs because they are simultaneously generating many unique waveforms across different frequencies.

It is noteworthy that the F-35/LRASM combination is one of the most lethal anti-ship systems in existence today. Although fully capable of operating autonomously, LRASM missiles launched from the F-18, B-1B and in the future P-8 and B-21 and from naval surface and submarine units when combined with the fighter F-35 for real-time targeting and tracking is simply devastating to enemy naval units.

Your assertion that for a missile to be effective, the PLAN would have to be developing it doesn't make any sense. The ASuW doctrine of Americans and Chinese are conceptually different, therefore, it would not even be a validating argument to claim that the LASM missile is not useful in an ASuW environment.

In a blue-water battle anywhere within the 1st and 2nd Island Chains, why should the ASuW doctrine of the US be any different to that of China?

If stealthy subsonic missiles were the most effective type of antiship missile, then both China and the US should have come to that conclusion. If LRASMs have a range of 600km, China and the US could spam these missiles at each other within the 1st Island Chain, and both sides could expect these missiles to succeed.

But China has completely skipped LRASMs and gone with hypersonic antiship missiles with far greater range.

My read is that LRASMs were developed because of the limitations of the existing US delivery platforms, which needed missiles which are not too heavy or too big. Aircraft (by definition) have a very limited payload weight and the ships are limited by the size of the Mk41 VLS cells

Chinese aircraft also have similar weight limitations and Chinese ships actually have a larger VLS cell.
China also has the J-20 fighter which is larger and longer ranged than an F-35.
If the F-35/LRASM combination was as deadly as you suggest, a J-20 variant could perform the same real-time ship targeting mission you have suggested.

So why hasn't China developed LRASMs, if they are so amazing?
My conclusion is that slow subsonic LRASMs just aren't effective against a competent air defence system


Later this year, BAE Systems was awarded a contract to produce new, next-generation seekers for the LRSM at a lower cost, this will help reduce overall missile costs and give the missile more efficiency and less reliance on external data.

Again, a missile such as LRASM is still ineffective for task forces centered on aircraft carriers with escorts consisting of cruisers (heavy destroyers) as well as destroyers, anti-aircraft capable frigates and AEW&C assets, as the missile would already be detected beyond the radar horizon and would be constantly located once its detection was made, this would eliminate the surprise effect of sea-skimming as well as its stealth-missile characteristic, and its ability to stealthily circle a zone around the target would already be ruled out.

I expect all Chinese task forces to have AWACs cover within the 1st and 2nd Island Chains
Therefore any LRASMs launched by the US would be detected beyond the radar horizon
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
In due time PLAN will introduce stealth ASCM of their own.

A missile like the LRASM can easily have a RCS 10+ times less than a F-22. Flying low, close to the surface, it will have the additional masking effect of sea clutter. An EAW aircraft will have a very hard time finding such a missile. Thanks to its passive RF sensors, LRASM can take evasive actions well before it enters the detection range of EAW aircraft. A defending force would need a dense network of airborne radars, preferably in both UHF and S-band: the former for early coarse detection which can then be used to cue the S-band radars to a narrower search fence where they can deposit more energy per volume to increase their probability of establishing a track.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
In due time PLAN will introduce stealth ASCM of their own.

A missile like the LRASM can easily have a RCS 10+ times less than a F-22. Flying low, close to the surface, it will have the additional masking effect of sea clutter. An EAW aircraft will have a very hard time finding such a missile. Thanks to its passive RF sensors, LRASM can take evasive actions well before it enters the detection range of EAW aircraft. A defending force would need a dense network of airborne radars, preferably in both UHF and S-band: the former for early coarse detection which can then be used to cue the S-band radars to a narrower search fence where they can deposit more energy per volume to increase their probability of establishing a track.

What you've written is illogical.

An LRASM can't make evasive maneuvers to avoid AWACs aircraft.

If we've talking about airborne AWACs, you're talking about a radar horizon of 400km.
So an AWACs has a bubble which is 800km across.

Now, the radars may not track an LRASM at those ranges, but even a much shorter detection range has a similar effect.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
In due time PLAN will introduce stealth ASCM of their own.

Then why didn't the PLAN do this 10 years ago?

They already had the technology and resources back then.
And it would be so much easier than all the hypersonic missiles they chose to develop instead.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
What you've written is illogical.

An LRASM can't make evasive maneuvers to avoid AWACs aircraft.

If we've talking about airborne AWACs, you're talking about a radar horizon of 400km.
So an AWACs has a bubble which is 800km across.

Now, the radars may not track an LRASM at those ranges, but even a much shorter detection range has a similar effect.
Think about it. If the AEW aircraft can detect the missile from just 40km away, then to ensure than no missile slips through your AEW aircraft should not be more than 40km apart.

If the AEW patrol is 300km out from the fleet, then to form such a picket fence around the fleet, you would need 45 AEW aircraft!
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think we had this discussion before? USN employs SLAMER-ATA and NSM/JSM, all of which are passive (IIR) and can strike moving ships at sea. Even the venerable Penguin comes in passive variants. The latter was originally introduced because active radar missiles had poor performance in littoral environments.

This is the source of confusion. IR/IIR is passive guidance. There's a plethora of anti-air passive missiles that work quite well against targets orders of magnitude more maneuverable than a large ship.

You can't compare IIR with a passive RF seeker trying to home in on let's say L-band. IIR uses an entirely different method by matching images against a database using contrast and outline recognition. Even if you are using IR, which is a passive form of seeker, infrared goes way way beyond the highest frequency radio lengths and that's very obvious that it is on a different realm in the EMF spectrum.

There is a relationship between frequency length to accuracy and the way sensors deal with clutter.

Active radar seekers have poor performance in littoral environments. Yes. Guess what. Go up another level with even higher frequencies. Out goes X-band seekers and into mmwave seekers. A good example is the YJ-7 and YJ-9 antiship missiles which is intended for littoral use. These have mmwave seekers. The Hellfire has an mmwave seeker and it arms, well, a littoral combat ship. It goes further that you can use an active radar seeker against a tank, which is the Brimstone missile.

Once again, the drawbacks of using mmwave is the same as any super high frequency and that is range. They are very short ranged. IR and IIR is also short ranged and furthermore, they are direct line of sight. Water vapor is a great absorbent of IR.

Smallish arrays against longer wavelengths result in poor angular accuracy, resolution and directional gain. There is a good reason why the longer wavelengths get, the larger the arrays that utilize them. There is also the issue of OTH, with waves bouncing of the atmosphere and that's not bound to be accurate either.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
In due time PLAN will introduce stealth ASCM of their own.

A missile like the LRASM can easily have a RCS 10+ times less than a F-22. Flying low, close to the surface, it will have the additional masking effect of sea clutter. An EAW aircraft will have a very hard time finding such a missile. Thanks to its passive RF sensors, LRASM can take evasive actions well before it enters the detection range of EAW aircraft. A defending force would need a dense network of airborne radars, preferably in both UHF and S-band: the former for early coarse detection which can then be used to cue the S-band radars to a narrower search fence where they can deposit more energy per volume to increase their probability of establishing a track.

I don't really buy that. If you are flying low in the surface, ahem, passive RF will also be subjected to heavy clutter. The RF from the ship you are trying to sense will be subject to interference from multipathing, as waves bounce off the water surface from different directions, to different directions. This phenomenon also varies to the water from how calm or violent the surface is, to the temperature and humidity of the air. There is also the issue of surface wave propagation, where waves cling to the surface. That's plenty of RF noise there. There is also the issue of line of sight, if you are flying low, so is your radar horizon, and you do not have line of sight with the target radar source. There is a reason why SEAD and ELINT work at a reasonably high altitude.

An AEW aircraft won't be in the business of operating over water if its radar will have clutter issues. Before it will even be commissioned, those issues will be sorted out. Mind you AEW and MPA aircraft can perfectly pick up a small boat in the water despite the sea clutter.

Then when you are working with longer wavelengths, directional shaping doesn't work as well as against shorter wavelengths. That's the reason antistealth radars work with long wavelengths. The longer you go the less effective directional shaping gets. It so happens this is the region where AEW aircraft operate, like Hawkeyes already operate on UHF.
 
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