PLAN Aircraft Carrier programme...(Closed)

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plawolf

Lieutenant General
So you're agreeing with me then? I really don't understand the point you are trying to make? Yeah, brinkmanship is risky and the article even points that out. I don't really see how its different than the Cuban Missile Crisis, the threat of Mutually Assured Destruction brought the Soviet Union and the United States to the table. In the case of the US and China its very much the same thing, both have too much to risk to not settle the issue diplomatically.

Unfortunately what you are saying doesn't make much sense because you don't seem to understand what brinksmanship is.

In brinksmanship, both sides knows full well the terrible consequences, but are both convinced the other will blink and back down first, thus giving themselves the advantage.

Just because disaster was averted once does not, by any rime or reason, indicate that the same outcome will prevail in other similar situations.

A good recent example of brinksmanship gone wrong was the shutdown of the US federal government when the republicans and decomcrats both thought the other side would cave but neither did.

I also wish people would stop using the Cuban missiles crisis (CMC) as a comparison. The two scenarios are so different as to make any comparison meaningless at best and misleading at worst.

Firstly, the CMC was a stand off. For the US to directly intervene in a cross straits shooting war would be US forces directly engaging Chinese forces in combat.

The second important distinction is that technology, tensions, timescales, level of delegation and thousands of other key factors are nothing like what it was during the 60s.

During the CMC, tensions were so high and technology so limited that the use of nuclear weapons was pretty much hard-wired into the SOP of both sides as soon as the first shot was fired in anger.

Technological limitations in communications and the incredibly short time-scales involved in a war in Europe meant tactical nuclear launch authority was delegated down the chain of command to commanders right on the front lines. That means as soon as full scale hostilities broke out, everyone will be obliged to launch because nobody has the time to wait and see if the incoming missiles and bombers are carrying nuclear or conventional payloads. As such, the last resort has pretty much become the first response.

Fast forward to today, and for both the US and China, only their respectic presidents can authorise a nuclear launch. The two are also not embroiled in a life and death struggle, so are less inclined to think incoming missiles are nuclear.

If the conflict is limited to none home territory targets only, both sides would also have the luxury of waiting for the missiles and bombs to hit first rather than being forced to second guess what those weapons may be carrying.

Because of all this, the scope for an accidental nuclear war is infinitely smaller than during the time of the CMC.

If we rule out an accidental nuclear escalation, then the choice to go nuclear would have to be a conscious and deliberate one. Everyone can apply game theory and their own assumptions and conditions, but that is all conjecture and assumption. If we go down that road, we will still be arguing about this until the next New Years if not longer.

The way I see it, only two things will be 100% guaranteed to trigger a nuclear launch by either side.

1) A direct nuclear attack by the other.

2) A concerted attempt by the other side to systematically take out their nuclear launch capabilities.

Nuclear carriers, as valuable as they are, simply don't qualify.

Say China sinks a USN super carrier with conventional weapons. For the US president to authorise a nuclear reprisal attack is 100% guaranteed to trigger a Chinese nuclear response. There is simply no two ways about that.

So it makes zero sense for the US president to go down that path as the outcome is both terrible beyond imagining and pretty much inescapable as soon as he gives the launch command. Faced with such monumentally high costs and the near certainty of that happening if he goes nuclear, it is simply beyond reason and logic for him to chose to continue down that path.

Both China and the US can make these same calculations, so the threat of a US nuclear response if China kills and US carrier is an empty one and everyone knows it.

That threat can only be used to bully non-nuclear states like Iran and North Korea into not trying to start something, but against a fellow nuclear power, M.A.D trumps those empty threats very easily.

That Diplomat Article would have made sense if instead of nuclear carriers, it used SSBNs as the subject. But as with most things the Diplomat publishes, their articles are driving by ideology and what happens to be trending rather than real logic or reason.
 

Holt_Allen

New Member
Registered Member
I think this has gotten way off topic and honestly I think we've lost the plot of the original article.

It clearly ends by advocating,

The Diplomat said:
In their post-1991 engagement, China and the United States have shown that their commitment to a peaceful resolution of disputes remains at the forefront of their strategic relationship. From the 1996 strait crisis to the accidental bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade in 1999 to the 2001 U.S. spy plane collision, the U.S. and China have been optimistic about each other’s intentions and mutually de-escalated dangerous confrontations. A DPP government in Taiwan, with an assertive political agenda promoting a distinct Taiwanese identity and de jure independence, would unquestionably test Sino-U.S. relations. Beijing and Washington should preempt any possible cross-strait military buildup and engage in a sincere dialogue about Taiwan’s democratic future. A clash of carriers would be a risk that the world cannot afford to take.

I think we've all gone too far down the path on the validity of using a carrier in the Taiwan Straight for deterrence and lost the core message of the article.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Well the article is irresponsible since China hasn't reacted much to the DPP win in Taiwan. Also let's not forget that US went through the extraordinary step to tell the then President Chen Shui Bian to essentially shut up recognizing that he was causing trouble instigating tensions with China. So unless Obama doesn't learn from history, he should learn from his own experience with the pivot where he thought everyone only had a problem with China but nationalistic rivalries took advantage of Obama's pivot call and tensions flared between South Korea and Japan and the Philippines killed an unarmed Taiwanese fisherman over territorial disputes. That kind of in-fighting among all who are suppose to be against China doesn't help an alliance. The article is from the notoriously anti-China Diplomat so the motives are suspect already since nothing has happened that calls for the US to send a carrier through the Strait.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
I think this has gotten way off topic and honestly I think we've lost the plot of the original article.

It clearly ends by advocating,



I think we've all gone too far down the path on the validity of using a carrier in the Taiwan Straight for deterrence and lost the core message of the article.

Of course it did which is hardly surprising. Discussions like these will contiune on an indefinite loop which is why this is usually against SD Rules.
As for my own personal opinion I do not believe that the US will engage civilian infrastructure nor directly taken out installations that are deep into Chinese homeland. Naval ports and airbases will be fair game however. The US will use all available conventional forces to stop any sort of invasion by PRC forces on the sea via subsurface warfare, land base aircraft and from carriers parked far away from the Chinese coast. I also see generous usage of electronic warfare as well as cyber warfare on both sides to disrupt communications etc.

Keep in mind that events leading up to such a massive operation would've been known for quite a while. DDay type landings do not exist in modern doctrines anymore and even then the Germans knew, they just didn't know the time. Taiwanese coastline would be filled with patriot batteries and other types of anti aircraft and anti missile defenses.

With all that being said no one will be pushing the perverbial red button unless ther other person pushes first. I also do not see this event happening at all. The cost is unfathomable not to mention there is a much easier way. With China's gdp growing, the general population doing much better than their fathers and grandfathers, their influence getting stronger and the politics of new china very different than even just a few decades ago it would be extremely foolish to mount any sort of tactical operation as envisaged by the author. I guess he reads too much Tom Clancy novels.
 

Franklin

Captain
The chances for war between China and Taiwan in the short to medium term is very small indeed. The importants of Taiwan to China economically and strategically has been significantly reduced over the years. Today Taiwan's economy is 20 times smaller than that of China's and its military is lagging further and further behind of those of China's by the year. That has help to reduce the imperative for China to seek reunification quickly. But the political and emotional aspect for seeking reunification is still there and is as strong as before. But in China emotional and political considerations takes a backseat to the economic and strategic considerations.

On the Taiwanese side they know that they are falling behind militarily and they have become so dependent on China economically these days that even a DPP win in next years elections wouldn't produce the sort of provocative policies as under the previous DPP president Chen Shui-bian.

At this point if Taiwan doesn't declare de jure independence then the chances for war is virtually zero. So the entire article and the discussion here is just purely academical and even sensational. So can we please move on! Does anyone have anything to report on the Liaoning ?
 

delft

Brigadier
The time for war between China and Taiwan passed long ago. If, strictly for the argument, Taiwan were to declare itself independent China would suggest to many countries that they reduce buying from the island and suggest to others that it is unwise to sell or transport oil there. China wouldn't need to take over plant owned by Taiwanese companies but might do so.
 
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broadsword

Brigadier
IMO, I don't think Taiwan would even want to declare independence, under whichever govt. We have been hearing that many people there want the status quo to stay and live in peace.
 

Dizasta1

Senior Member
There some good observations posted by members here.

Here is my analysis on the subject:

In so far as Aircrat-Carriers are concerned, there but just a handful of scenarios that would play out. Depending on certain capabilities, America would employ its carriers which would even surprise China to a certain extent. Again, depending on certain capabilities, where the U.S Navy or Air Force have operational LD platforms and weapons. Then America would most certainly deploy its carriers at the Taiwan Straits. As recent news reports suggest, both USN & USAF are working on laser-weapons which are capable of operating on both Destroyers and UAS.

This Laser-Weapons' capability, along with CIWS & SAMs, on any Aegis Class Destroyer would be a game changer. It would effectively relegate current ballistic and cruise missile weapons, to a "not so effective weapon".

Also, it depends whether America considers it to be the right time to pick a fight with China. Since in international crisis, tactics and strategies quickly change or are in varying forms. Dependent on what the overall strategic objective is of any powerful country.

Hence it would also depend on whether America considers build-up tensions between China and Taiwan, favours their overall strategic interests. To reveal such a capability in actual combat scenario with China.

Such a tactic or approach was demonstrated in 1990, against Iraq. Where for many years, the Americans had kept its stealth asset, the F-117 Knighthawk, under tight secrecy. And when the opportunity presented itself in the shape of Iraq, when Saddam Hussain invaded Kuwait. Also, the Soviet Union had collapsed before the invasion.

All of these factors combined, made tactically favourable for America to employ its stealth bomber.

So, one of the scenarios, where America might employ its aircraft carriers in the Taiwan Straits would depend on whether the laser-weapon has become operational on its aircraft carriers, or destroyers. Also, whether it would be strategically favourable for America to deploy such a weapon's capability. Meaning, whether the outcome of the conflict would render any effort by the adversary, meaningless and ineffective against America.

From China's perspective, it would depend on whether it already has full knowledge of America's carrier defence capabilities and employs a tactically unconventional capability or negate the adversary's advantage. Or that, China is quick to assess during the time leading to actual shooting war. On why America has deployed its carriers, despite China deployed Carrier-Killer Ballistic Missiles.

In such a case, tensions would quickly die down or radical strategies are employed by either of the parties involved.

Since there is no particular time-scale here and no Intel capabilities becoming operational. It's all a test of nerves, quick and an accurate assessment of combat situation.
 

Sczepan

Senior Member
VIP Professional
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30 December

CHINA
Final home base for aircraft carriers not decided yet … MoD spokesman mentions “variety of options” ranging from Sanya (Hainan) and Zhoushan to Qingdao.
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my 5 Cents - each of this will become homeport of future CBG including new build Carriers
 
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