PLA strike strategies in westpac HIC

tamsen_ikard

Senior Member
Registered Member
No 5% spending for China! I think it is wiser for China to stay in 1.5% GDP spending. And I wish US and NATO will raise their spending to 10% of their GDP.
You think like this because you don't think War is coming. Cause if there is a war coming, you want to be as powerful as possible and if possible completely dominate your opponent.

China can stay naive and rely on the niceness of its opponent US, hoping that US will slowly make way for China's rise and slowly step back. It can hope that its east Asian neighbours that have been worshipping the west for decades and looking down on China with hatred will simply give up on their prejudice and accept Chinese dominance.

I think its a pipe dream to think War is not coming. I think War is pretty much inevitable. The question is how big that war will be. I think the more powerful and dominant China is, the smaller and quicker the war will be. Cause China will be so dominant that even a small skirmish will send such powerful message that US will back off and East Asian countries will realize their folly.

If China is weaker due to low spending on the military, then its opponents will be bolder and more confident. They will keep fighting even if they have setbacks hoping for a turnaround. It will likely become a war of attrition which will be extremely costly and may go on for many years and lead to wifespread destruction inside China.

So, lets see what path China takes.
 
Well, it doesn't matter, because we don't know what weapons that will be used when the war is actually started. There are a lot of variable here. But I agree, China has outpaced US in term of military technology development. And that's what matter.
Technological and industrial capabilities along with doctrine and leadership determine the outcome of modern warfare. Members too focused on counting and comparing current weapons systems that are in service are missing the forest for the trees. Applying that type of rudimentary analysis, one would incorrectly conclude the IJN had an actual chance in the Pacific and that the Red Army would have crushed the Germans during Barbarossa. Until a conflict actually occurs (which is incredibly unlikely, thankfully), it is difficult to predict which side's doctrines and conceptualization of warfare is correct and which side has the more capable leaders. However, in the case of technological and industrial capabilities, it should be clear that one side has a significant advantage, and that the gap will only continue to widen on the foreseeable future.
 

Tomboy

Junior Member
Registered Member
You think like this because you don't think War is coming. Cause if there is a war coming, you want to be as powerful as possible and if possible completely dominate your opponent.

China can stay naive and rely on the niceness of its opponent US, hoping that US will slowly make way for China's rise and slowly step back. It can hope that its east Asian neighbours that have been worshipping the west for decades and looking down on China with hatred will simply give up on their prejudice and accept Chinese dominance.

I think its a pipe dream to think War is not coming. I think War is pretty much inevitable. The question is how big that war will be. I think the more powerful and dominant China is, the smaller and quicker the war will be. Cause China will be so dominant that even a small skirmish will send such powerful message that US will back off and East Asian countries will realize their folly.

If China is weaker due to low spending on the military, then its opponents will be bolder and more confident. They will keep fighting even if they have setbacks hoping for a turnaround. It will likely become a war of attrition which will be extremely costly and may go on for many years and lead to wifespread destruction inside China.

So, lets see what path China takes.
If China is outbuilding the US even with 1.5 percent GDP spending, I don't see why they would want to spend more as long as their objectives are met. Currently there are more important and immediate things to spend money on like building the economy/advancing science than try to spend ever more on the military at the expense of everything else like the US(and mid-late cold war Soviet Union). Even if war is coming it's not going to happen in the near future, and Chinese leadership certainly agree with this given their attitude on this matter.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
That would take decades

You should learn materials science first.

China is selling rare earths which is mined within China to the globe,not exactly something you would do if the goal is to preserve the resources

China imports oil and coal even though it could exhaust Daqing and Shanxi mines first.

No missiles Hypersonic weapons Jet engine nozzles etc,use tungsten
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tamsen_ikard

Senior Member
Registered Member
If China is outbuilding the US even with 1.5 percent GDP spending, I don't see why they would want to spend more as long as their objectives are met. Currently there are more important and immediate things to spend money on like building the economy/advancing science than try to spend ever more on the military at the expense of everything else like the US. Even if war is coming it's not going to happen in the near future, and Chinese leadership certainly agree with this given their attitude on this matter.
That's the thing, China is outbuilding the US in some areas but US can see that and that's why they are prodding their allies to increase spending to 5% and I think its likely US will also increase spending to cold war levels as time goes on.

Moreover, US knows it still has the advantage now and might not have that in the future. It might feel that its better to fight now and take China down while it still has the upper hand. I expect US will get more and more erratic, aggressive as China rise which will lead to greater tensions until a crisis starts and devolves into a War.

US allies like Japan, Taiwan, Philippines can also see the trend lines. They might think its better to be aggressive now and force US to start the fight and take China down now while China is beatable. They are becoming more and more aggressive and hoping for a response from China that will in turn force US to act.

China cannot rely on the fact that US will simply watch China rise without any serious effort to stop it including using military means. I think risk of War is very high in the next 10-15 years. That's the window where US will still have reasonable chance of winning and they might take that Chance.
 
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I think risk of War is very high in the next 10-15 years. That's the window where US will still have reasonable chance of winning and they might take that Chance.
The window where the US had a reasonable chance of winning a conventional conflict in was 1990-2012. The chance of civil war in the US in the next 10-15 years is much higher than chance of Sino-US War. The ruling elite in the US have no appetite for direct conflict with a major nuclear power.
 

4Tran

Junior Member
Registered Member
That's the thing, China is outbuilding the US in some areas but US can see that and that's why they are prodding their allies to increase spending to 5% and I think its likely US will also increase spending to cold war levels as time goes on.

Moreover, US knows it still has the advantage now and might not have that in the future. It might feel that its better to fight now and take China down while it still has the upper hand. I expect US will get more and more erratic, aggressive as China rise which will lead to greater tensions until a crisis starts and devolves into a War.

US allies like Japan, Taiwan, Philippines can also see the trend lines. They might think its better to be aggressive now and force US to start the fight and take China down now while China is beatable. They are becoming more and more aggressive and hoping for a response from China that will in turn force US to act.

China cannot rely on the fact that US will simply watch China rise without any serious effort to stop it including using military means. I think risk of War is very high in the next 10-15 years. That's the window where US will still have reasonable chance of winning and they might take that Chance.
The US has been making a serious effort to stop China, and lots of them at that! There was the TPP started by Obama, there were all the sanctions against Chinese companies, the chip embargoes, tarrifs, and so on. These are the tried and true methods used by the US since at least the '60s and it's the best they can do short of war.

And why no war? It's because the US has realized that it's too late, and they no longer have the advantage. Sure, the overall US military is stronger than the PLA, but there's no reasonable scenario where this overall strength can be expressed. I imagine that if the US felt that they still had an advantage, they'd be trying to provoke China into some sort of military confrontation and use that as an excuse to start a small local conflict. But instead, the rhetoric we keep hearing out of American leaders and military officials is "deterrence, deterrence, and deterrence". It's simply not the kind of language used by a nation that's confident in its chances. Hell, they're even avoiding talking about what they'd in a war; instead they're talking about what their allies would do.

The window where the US had a reasonable chance of winning a conventional conflict in was 1990-2012. The chance of civil war in the US in the next 10-15 years is much higher than chance of Sino-US War. The ruling elite in the US have no appetite for direct conflict with a major nuclear power.
I think that the US lost its window of opportunity around 2015 or so. And this was closed completely with the Trump 1.0 sanction in 2018.
 

dingyibvs

Senior Member
That's the thing, China is outbuilding the US in some areas but US can see that and that's why they are prodding their allies to increase spending to 5% and I think its likely US will also increase spending to cold war levels as time goes on.

Moreover, US knows it still has the advantage now and might not have that in the future. It might feel that its better to fight now and take China down while it still has the upper hand. I expect US will get more and more erratic, aggressive as China rise which will lead to greater tensions until a crisis starts and devolves into a War.

US allies like Japan, Taiwan, Philippines can also see the trend lines. They might think its better to be aggressive now and force US to start the fight and take China down now while China is beatable. They are becoming more and more aggressive and hoping for a response from China that will in turn force US to act.

China cannot rely on the fact that US will simply watch China rise without any serious effort to stop it including using military means. I think risk of War is very high in the next 10-15 years. That's the window where US will still have reasonable chance of winning and they might take that Chance.
Why don't we see what this 5% spending amounts to first. There's a reason those countries haven't spent anywhere near that amount, so I'm not sure how they plan to do so with a flatlining economy.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
China should always aim to totally decimate and dismantle any threat. Doesn't matter if China allegedly leads in the numbers by 2030. Facts are: China has to expant even more so on those numbers. Having an "edge" is not enough. The enemy forces need to understand that only "supreme" and pure massacre awaits them if they go against China.

Think how the so-called "Western" -in essence - Imperial forces from 1800s think. It is as follows: Any country that can resist is considered a "threat".

It is insane just by the fact that U.S. thinks it can just send destroyers in the strait. Imagine PLA Navy just sending destroyers precisely outside Louisiana and Mississippi, just to irritate Orange Dumpsters, then visiting Mexico and Cuba, and putting some forces in Havana as well.

For far too long, its been normalized that Imperial forces can just have ships outside China's coast. China needs to also make it clear that Chinese reaction will be different to that of Russia and Iran.

While Russia and Iran have experienced being bombed in several major cities, China needs to make sure that shit will never fly in China's case. Meaning, if just one conventional missiles flies towards any Chinese city (being able to penetrate that is), the enemy bases on several islands will be double-tapped with tactical nuclear strikes. Simple as that. The same way the U.S. would not have tolerated that a Chinese missile hits an city in the U.S.

In order to have this as credible threat, China should push towards 5% defence spending or at least as close to that number as possible. Expanding brutally on conventional and - of course - nuclear forces, and making it very clear that also nuclear ones will be used, get rid of "No First Strike Policy".

That NATO target of 5% is due in 2035 and is composed of:

3.5% in direct military spending
1.5% in military-related spending

The US is already at this spending level, so it doesn't actually represent any extra spending.

It is many of the European countries which will have to increase military spending. But if you look at what they will likely be spending on, it is really relevant to Russia, but doesn't really affect China.

In any case, given the 2035 timeline and the speed/capacity of European military developments, China can likely offset anything Europe does. And do this faster and at lower cost.

---

Also, consider what China doubling military spending to just 3% would mean. For example:

1. Total annual procurement of 5th Gen stealth fighters would likely be over 400 per year, but this will take at least 3 years to ramp up. Then with just 5 years of full-rate production, there would be over 3000 in the fleet.

2. Annual procurement of warships would also go from 2x to 4x the US rate. Roughly speaking, that would be the equivalent of China adding an entire US Navy in the space of 10 years. But again, it would take a few years for this to ramp. Plus mature SSN and aircraft carrier designs aren't quite available yet

I feel these numbers are too excessive, as I think the risk of an actual war is actually fairly low.
 
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