PLA strike strategies in westpac HIC

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Subsonic cruise missiles are going to have a very time getting past any sort of decent air defence. The problem for the Americans is that they're used to firing them against foes who don't have any air defence so that's all they really have in their arsenal. And even if all of these missiles hit, they won't cause all that much lasting damage, so how is it some sort of war winning ability? In fact, it's just much more likely that the Americans give up as soon as they run out of their advanced munitions.

Would the US give up though?
And if it did give up, what happens in the aftermath?

Remember that the US and China have just gone to war, with the US attacking mainland China.

It would be in China's interests to agree to a peace.
But afterwards, we would almost certainly see a monumental military spending surge in China. For example:

China's could leverage its 232x advantage in shipbuilding capacity along with much lower production costs.
We would also likely see China building significantly more stealth fighters than the US does.
 

TheWanderWit

New Member
Registered Member
China's AD is extremely weak in terms of numbers compared to US and Russia. They have just 290 total HQ-9 launchers including both HQ-9 which is similar to s-300 level and more modern HQ-9B.

There will be huge gaps in China's AD due to its total land area. There will be lots of gaps that US missiles can exploit. Unless China rapidly boosts its AD numbers, their industry will still experience lots of damage.
China's AD isn't "weak" at all, let alone "extremely weak". What? China has the most dense and sophisticated IADS in the world. I'm sure you are well aware that "HQ-9s" is not their only ground-based AD platform, not to mention HQ-9s are more tailored for aircraft and TBMs rather than cruise missiles, but can still shoot them down. Even those numbers are plenty and are likely slowly increasing if the PLAAF is replacing older S-300s and original HQ-9s. For cruise missiles, that's what HQ-22, HQ-16, HQ-17, etc. are for. All those, all the way down to SPAAG guns. Not to mention a credible sea-based AD network with 80+ DDGs/FFGs and counting which is combined with the largest, most modern land-based AEW fleet in the world, drones, EW/ECM, satellite networks, and thousands of fighters, all still growing.

Sure, Russia isn't the US with the same level of firepower, volume, and capabilities, but just look at the Ukraine war. Ukraine with their ground-based SAMs and NATO ISR help achieves a very high interception rate against slow, subsonic cruise missiles and drones from Russia compared to ballistics. If Ukraine can do that, what do you think China can do with vastly more capabilities? Ballistics are inherently much more difficult to stop than cruise missiles. Unlike a country like China who has a vast variety of munitions that they utilize from multiple launch platforms, the US' entire munition inventory is basically just cruise missiles and glide bombs, that's it. Glide bombs aren't going to work here, so everything would primarily be cruise missiles from stand off ranges. Which would most likely come primarily from air and submarines, as DDGs/CGs would be hundreds of miles back, if not a thousand+, which further limits and reduces the effectiveness of any ship-launched Tomahawk strikes. Even launching at 500 miles away, going say 300 mph, it would take a Tomahawk over an hour and a half to reach China's coast. So again, if they attempted such strikes, they'd come mainly from air, which China would have early warning and see them coming, or submarines, whose strike capabilities become limited, as once they run low or run out, have to go all the way back to port to reload which can take days.

There's little to no ability for the US to do any sort of real damage to China's mainland and hinder their infrastructure or industrial capacity. No AD network is impenetrable, but the odds in this area aren't anywhere in the US' favor given their munitions inventory is very "one-dimensional". The only real platform that can cause trouble and penetrate China's IADS would be hypersonics, which the US still has none of. LRHW still isn't in service, and will be a limited, niche, and expensive capability for the US with few areas to station them, or ARRW/HACM, which again will be expensive capabilities for the US that they'll likely simply not have the ability to throw in any real mass. No Blk5 Virginia's or the first refitted Zumwalt are in service yet with CPS, which will probably cost even more than LRHW as it'll be a ship/sub-launched platform, which not to mention, at-sea testing is still 2-3 years way, so this is a capability the US likely won't have until 2029; 2028 at the earliest. HALO is also canceled now by the USN, so they have none. I would also bet China can produce more SAMs at a larger scale than the US can produce cruise missiles.
 
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4Tran

Junior Member
Registered Member
Right.

It's actually even more lop-sided. US only has a few options of launching large salvos.

One is a large strike packages of tactical aircraft. For most of the figher/attack platforms in US inventory, the combat radius would be sub-1000km. So they either need to be based off less than half dozen bases, or carriers. Realistically, they will not be able to get off strike package of even approaching 100, give all the other mission sets they will need to do for their bases / carriers, especially in terms of force protection.

A second option is to use large fleet of tankers to extend the radii, so a much larger number of bases, and put carriers further back. Of course this means that tankers would be well within detection range of ground based UHF and L-band surveillance radars, air based surveillance, etc. Thus easy targets for the likes of PL-17 and R-37, or super long range SAMs.

Yet another option would be to use penetrating strategic platforms. But there only 19 such units capable of penetration of air defences against peer adversaries, until a large number of B-21s come online in the 2030s. The issue is similar for using attack subs, they don't have the mass necessary until a large number of block-V Virginias with VPMs get commissioned. A different issue if they decide to use the converted Ohio boats with TLAM-D/E, which are outdated, slow, and easily detected.

Finally, there are some more novel options like Rapid Dragon, like using JASSM-XR, that usually requires a large contingent of slow and non-survivable cargo planes flying within the A2AD bubble. If successful at all, would be basically a single use surprise attack.
I don't think that any of these options are particularly good. There's no way that the USAF will commit their tanker fleet when there's a chance that Chinese arircraft can just pick them off, and throwing in stealth bombers against intact an air defence network are especially unworkable plans. I think that in any fight, the Americans will be on the defensive, and whatever assets then can use within theater will be tied up trying to deal with China's vastly superior numbers. Any thoughts that they're going to try any more than toke attacks against mainland targets are probably fantasy.

Would the US give up though?
And if it did give up, what happens in the aftermath?

Remember that the US and China have just gone to war, with the US attacking mainland China.

It would be in China's interests to agree to a peace.
But afterwards, we would almost certainly see a monumental military spending surge in China. For example:

China's could leverage its 232x advantage in shipbuilding capacity along with much lower production costs.
We would also likely see China building significantly more stealth fighters than the US does.
They'll give up because they have very shallow munitions stores. The Americans have limited abilities to increase production and however much they can make can't cover their expenditure. If they kept fighting after they run out then they're just going to take unnecessary losses and it's hardly the first time the Americans have given up on a war partway through it.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
They'll give up because they have very shallow munitions stores. The Americans have limited abilities to increase production and however much they can make can't cover their expenditure. If they kept fighting after they run out then they're just going to take unnecessary losses and it's hardly the first time the Americans have given up on a war partway through it.

My point is that if the US gives up, China will likely come back in 10 years time with a truly huge military advantage...

Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan could never hope to do this.
So the US could afford to withdraw and not worry about the consequences.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Right.

It's actually even more lop-sided. US only has a few options of launching large salvos.

One is a large strike packages of tactical aircraft. For most of the figher/attack platforms in US inventory, the combat radius would be sub-1000km. So they either need to be based off less than half dozen bases, or carriers. Realistically, they will not be able to get off strike package of even approaching 100, give all the other mission sets they will need to do for their bases / carriers, especially in terms of force protection.

A second option is to use large fleet of tankers to extend the radii, so a much larger number of bases, and put carriers further back. Of course this means that tankers would be well within detection range of ground based UHF and L-band surveillance radars, air based surveillance, etc. Thus easy targets for the likes of PL-17 and R-37, or super long range SAMs.

Yet another option would be to use penetrating strategic platforms. But there only 19 such units capable of penetration of air defences against peer adversaries, until a large number of B-21s come online in the 2030s. The issue is similar for using attack subs, they don't have the mass necessary until a large number of block-V Virginias with VPMs get commissioned. A different issue if they decide to use the converted Ohio boats with TLAM-D/E, which are outdated, slow, and easily detected.

Finally, there are some more novel options like Rapid Dragon, like using JASSM-XR, that usually requires a large contingent of slow and non-survivable cargo planes flying within the A2AD bubble. If successful at all, would be basically a single use surprise attack.

Some comments:

1. It does look like the largest airstrike packages currently have a practical limit of 50 aircraft.

2. Where are those tankers going to be operating from? There's only a handful of bases in the Second Island Chain

3. If you're talking about the 2030s, the military balance will shift decidedly in China's favour. Roughly speaking, it looks like Chinese annual warship procurement is 2x the rate of the US:
eg. 2 aircraft carriers every 5 years, destroyers, frigates, etc etc

4. Procurement of 5th Gen stealth fighters is at 100 per year, and is presumably going to ramp to 150+ annually. By 2030, we'd be looking at a Chinese Air Force with 1100+ 5th gen stealth fighters plus another 1500 4th Gen tactical fighters. Combined with missile strikes and Y-20 tanker aircraft procurement, this likely means China easily obtaining air superiority over all of the First Island Chain.
 

TheWanderWit

New Member
Registered Member
It is a bad idea to believe Ukrainian interception numbers in the first place.
Sure, you have have some skepticism on Ukraine's numbers, but I was basing that statement on this CSIS graphic from 2 years ago. You can say its a bit outdated, but I think it outlines the general picture. Regardless, China has vastly more capabilities to defend against these compared to Ukraine and Russia.1751751818342.png
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
I just want to say any damage on china economy is going to affect on america economy too. That said america is not going to win just because their city didn't get bombarded. If Taiwan is captured then america is going to lose its asian allies. If they side with china then it's a big trouble for america. So if we think about long term whoever win this war is going to dominate 21st century. At least that's what I believe.
I believe most Asian countries recognize that it's only a matter of time before the U.S. ceases to be the dominant power in Asia—China will take that role. Given China's current pace of progress and development, this shift seems inevitable. In the near future, I expect some form of "understanding" or tacit agreement between the U.S. and China, delineating spheres of influence. Asia, quite clearly, will not fall under U.S. dominance, unless, of course, a large-scale war erupts between the two powers, potentially involving nuclear weapons. But such a conflict is in no one's interest.
 

Engineer

Major
HQ-16 is only operated by PLAGF for its brigades. Its a battlefield AD.
It doesn't matter which branch of the arm force operates the HQ-16.
HQ-22 is cheaper and also much less capable. Its semi active homing and needs illumination from ground radar.

There also just 130 launchers for HQ-22.
The US has some 480 Patriot launchers (including semi-active guided versions) in service. In comparison, China has 200 HQ-9 + 250 HQ-16 + 130 HQ-22 for some 580 launchers in total. This is not at all "extremely weak", rather stronger.
The only AD that is worth mentioning is S-300 bought from Russia. But its imported and old and probably do not interface with newer Chinese systems.
China also has 90+ HQ-15/HQ-18 that are based on S-300PMU. Given China's reputation in reverse engineering, the original S-300s are most likely interfaced with rest of Chinese C4ISR. I believe China received around 60 S-300s launchers, so 60 + 90 + 580 for a total of 730 launchers.
 

doggydogdo

Junior Member
Registered Member
China's AD is extremely weak in terms of numbers compared to US and Russia. They have just 290 total HQ-9 launchers including both HQ-9 which is similar to s-300 level and more modern HQ-9B.

There will be huge gaps in China's AD due to its total land area. There will be lots of gaps that US missiles can exploit. Unless China rapidly boosts its AD numbers, their industry will still experience lots of damage.
HQ-9s beat American, Russian and European air defenses in Turkey and came under the budget, it was only canceled because of NATO pressure. China has other many more different systems which can work together with HQ-9 and they are probably the only country that takes SHORAD seriously which directly counters slow moving cruise missiles. Also, China has better ground-based radars compared to Russia and even the west.
 
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