PLA strike strategies in westpac HIC

Sinnavuuty

Sinnavuuty

Captain
Registered Member
Major lessons for the PLAAF from recent attacks:

- Massively increase the tanker fleet; Israel was able to attack with 200 fighters using only 7 C-130s and 7 KC-135s - Israeli fighters use flying booms and C-130s probe and drogue - and drop tanks, each KC-135 can carry up to 70 tons of fuel for REVO, at such a short distance

- Greater focus on ALBM in the initial salvos of the air campaign because of the difficulty of interception, use ALCM when the air defense is eliminated as we saw Iran not being able to intercept any Tomahawk

- Fighters can sustain an initial ALCM/ALBM bombing campaign at long ranges as long as they are supported by REVO or ETF; this is a force multiplier for the PLAAF, the question is to maintain the operational tempo

- Israel is showing how to use fighter aircraft proactively and how to implement SEAD/DEAD activity and establish air supremacy;

Some are already well-known teachings.
 
T

tamsen_ikard

Senior Member
Registered Member
Sinnavuuty said:
Major lessons for the PLAAF from recent attacks:

- Massively increase the tanker fleet; Israel was able to attack with 200 fighters using only 7 C-130s and 7 KC-135s - Israeli fighters use flying booms and C-130s probe and drogue - and drop tanks, each KC-135 can carry up to 70 tons of fuel for REVO, at such a short distance

- Greater focus on ALBM in the initial salvos of the air campaign because of the difficulty of interception, use ALCM when the air defense is eliminated as we saw Iran not being able to intercept any Tomahawk

- Fighters can sustain an initial ALCM/ALBM bombing campaign at long ranges as long as they are supported by REVO or ETF; this is a force multiplier for the PLAAF, the question is to maintain the operational tempo

- Israel is showing how to use fighter aircraft proactively and how to implement SEAD/DEAD activity and establish air supremacy;

Some are already well-known teachings.
Click to expand...
Israel hasn't shown any interesting SEAD/DEAD ability. They showed they had extremely good intelligence to know the exact locations of AD systems. They then hit them with standoff missiles. They also showed extreme infiltration and literally had agents destroying AD. You can't rely on that kind of move in a real war. Yes, its daring, its smart but its not high tech.
 
Sinnavuuty

Sinnavuuty

Captain
Registered Member
tamsen_ikard said:
Israel hasn't shown any interesting SEAD/DEAD ability. They showed they had extremely good intelligence to know the exact locations of AD systems. They then hit them with standoff missiles. They also showed extreme infiltration and literally had agents destroying AD. You can't rely on that kind of move in a real war. Yes, its daring, its smart but its not high tech.
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This is literally a DEAD campaign. Furthermore, Israel gained air superiority over northern and eastern Iran. But I won't discuss that here.
 
B

Brainsuker

Junior Member
Registered Member
The problem with Wespac theater is that it belong to US entirely. China doesn't has any foothold to reach there. They have to face the American front gate first. Which is Japan, Taiwan, and Philippine. Of course They can bomb Guam with missiles, but US can also bomb China mainland from Japan, Taiwan, and Philippine.

So, to find "Liberty" (a term in Wei Qi chess) to the east, China need to do something to Japan and Philippine. It was Duterte, but I think US already do some cleaning to secure what they got. So China needs something else. I don't know what cards that they can pull out now. Strategically, and logically, China should stir some political problem to Pinoy. But it will make them similar to US and the West.

But think about it with a chess logic. Right now US build a fortress in Philippine. They use anti China propaganda, arresting Duterte and make Philippine military stronger. Not too strong, but strong enough to make them confident to oppose China. Well, some kind of Illusion that make Pinoy feel that they can face China any time without any problem. It require time, but with the help from China and their 9 dash line claim and action, China help US to finish their fortress faster.

Well, I don't blame China for their antagonizing strategy to Pinoy. But why do I feel that US act like Zhuge Kong Ming with traps and stratagem, while China stay silent and encourage Pinoy to become their enemy. This is weird. But I think China has another solution that I can't see right now. Something that hidden from anyone, and will surprise both US and Marcos Jr. when it ready.

To me, if Pinoy is really a lost cause, China need something that can oppose Pinoy and make them some restless night. Maybe they'll can think straighter that to have an enemy, specially an enemy with the caliber of China can make their live uneasy. But with the things that China do right now, I don't think that it can give Philippine enough reason to change their heart. They still can sleep soundly, while yelling patriotic jargon that make them think that they're powerful and courageous. Because they can oppose China.
 
tygyg1111

tygyg1111

Captain
Registered Member
Brainsuker said:
The problem with Wespac theater is that it belong to US entirely. China doesn't has any foothold to reach there. They have to face the American front gate first. Which is Japan, Taiwan, and Philippine. Of course They can bomb Guam with missiles, but US can also bomb China mainland from Japan, Taiwan, and Philippine.

So, to find "Liberty" (a term in Wei Qi chess) to the east, China need to do something to Japan and Philippine. It was Duterte, but I think US already do some cleaning to secure what they got. So China needs something else. I don't know what cards that they can pull out now. Strategically, and logically, China should stir some political problem to Pinoy. But it will make them similar to US and the West.

But think about it with a chess logic. Right now US build a fortress in Philippine. They use anti China propaganda, arresting Duterte and make Philippine military stronger. Not too strong, but strong enough to make them confident to oppose China. Well, some kind of Illusion that make Pinoy feel that they can face China any time without any problem. It require time, but with the help from China and their 9 dash line claim and action, China help US to finish their fortress faster.

Well, I don't blame China for their antagonizing strategy to Pinoy. But why do I feel that US act like Zhuge Kong Ming with traps and stratagem, while China stay silent and encourage Pinoy to become their enemy. This is weird. But I think China has another solution that I can't see right now. Something that hidden from anyone, and will surprise both US and Marcos Jr. when it ready.

To me, if Pinoy is really a lost cause, China need something that can oppose Pinoy and make them some restless night. Maybe they'll can think straighter that to have an enemy, specially an enemy with the caliber of China can make their live uneasy. But with the things that China do right now, I don't think that it can give Philippine enough reason to change their heart. They still can sleep soundly, while yelling patriotic jargon that make them think that they're powerful and courageous. Because they can oppose China.
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Are the Philippines even a relevant threat? They don't have the capability to do anything to China independently, except for trollish moves in the South China Sea and renaming maps. US installations are controlled by the Americans, will not be allowed to be used for domestic point scoring stunts by PH politicians and would be quickly dealt with by China if armed conflict actually arises.
I would leave them be, they're not capable of the damage that would warrant an official response, and economically they are at the bottom of the SEA nations because of their own inability to descern priorities. Just some counter trolling is enough to keep them busy.
 
T

talonn

Junior Member
Registered Member
tygyg1111 said:
Are the Philippines even a relevant threat? They don't have the capability to do anything to China independently, except for trollish moves in the South China Sea and renaming maps. US installations are controlled by the Americans, will not be allowed to be used for domestic point scoring stunts by PH politicians and would be quickly dealt with by China if armed conflict actually arises.
I would leave them be, they're not capable of the damage that would warrant an official response, and economically they are at the bottom of the SEA nations because of their own inability to descern priorities. Just some counter trolling is enough to keep them busy.
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Their forces are useless but their islands are valuable for US to setup forward base
 
B

Brainsuker

Junior Member
Registered Member
tygyg1111 said:
Are the Philippines even a relevant threat? They don't have the capability to do anything to China independently, except for trollish moves in the South China Sea and renaming maps. US installations are controlled by the Americans, will not be allowed to be used for domestic point scoring stunts by PH politicians and would be quickly dealt with by China if armed conflict actually arises.
I would leave them be, they're not capable of the damage that would warrant an official response, and economically they are at the bottom of the SEA nations because of their own inability to descern priorities. Just some counter trolling is enough to keep them busy.
Click to expand...

Talonn tell it all. It is not Philippine and Japan government that relevant. It is US whole force that will give China headaches. By having Philippine, Japan, Vietnam, and Taiwan to their side, It is the same as US get a longer feet in SCS area. Thus, pivoting China. If US succeed with their plan, they can do more to China without endanger their original bases, like Guam, Hawaii, Australia and even their US mainland bases. But at the same time, the whole China mainland can be in danger, because US can put their missiles everywhere, near China. They can bomb China with ease, and the whole heavy industry belong to China is in danger. Including their shipyards, and military industries. US can even flattened Chenzhen with ease, and destroy the whole China high tech industries. Thus bring back China into Cultural Revolution economic level.

Can't you see that? I'll surprise if you can't see these things. That's why I always said that Philippine is critical for both China and US. Unless China can bring Indonesia into their wing, thus Philippine and Australia become in danger. Because then China can build a naval base at the islands north of Papua, and thus complicated US logistic routes to Philippine and Australia.
 
tygyg1111

tygyg1111

Captain
Registered Member
Brainsuker said:
Talonn tell it all. It is not Philippine and Japan government that relevant. It is US whole force that will give China headaches. By having Philippine, Japan, Vietnam, and Taiwan to their side, It is the same as US get a longer feet in SCS area. Thus, pivoting China. If US succeed with their plan, they can do more to China without endanger their original bases, like Guam, Hawaii, Australia and even their US mainland bases. But at the same time, the whole China mainland can be in danger, because US can put their missiles everywhere, near China. They can bomb China with ease, and the whole heavy industry belong to China is in danger. Including their shipyards, and military industries. US can even flattened Chenzhen with ease, and destroy the whole China high tech industries. Thus bring back China into Cultural Revolution economic level.

Can't you see that? I'll surprise if you can't see these things. That's why I always said that Philippine is critical for both China and US. Unless China can bring Indonesia into their wing, thus Philippine and Australia become in danger. Because then China can build a naval base at the islands north of Papua, and thus complicated US logistic routes to Philippine and Australia.
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The scenario you mentioned was true at any point before 2015, and has only gotten better (for China) since. If China can hit anything the US puts in the Philippines, the territory value of PH drops. If this is repeated for the whole 1CS, the utility and cost/benefit for US fortifying those areas drops. In fact, this is exactly what has been happening (e.g. SCS islands), with weapons sales morphing from actual weapons sales to money grabbing activities selling outdated weaponry at high prices (e.g. Taiwan, Philippines).
Only competent countries get real support (e.g. Japan, SK), but even then they are intended as expendable front line cannon fodder if anything does happen.
 
M

montyp165

Senior Member
tygyg1111 said:
The scenario you mentioned was true at any point before 2015, and has only gotten better (for China) since. If China can hit anything the US puts in the Philippines, the territory value of PH drops. If this is repeated for the whole 1CS, the utility and cost/benefit for US fortifying those areas drops. In fact, this is exactly what has been happening (e.g. SCS islands), with weapons sales morphing from actual weapons sales to money grabbing activities selling outdated weaponry at high prices (e.g. Taiwan, Philippines).
Only competent countries get real support (e.g. Japan, SK), but even then they are intended as expendable front line cannon fodder if anything does happen.
Click to expand...
Indeed, in all honesty I can say that from this point on even if the US were to attempt a full scale preemptive strike against China with every available asset at their disposal, China would still have sufficient industrial power to basically steamroll them across the Pacific back to the Continental US itself, and this will become even more apparent by next year's time. The only people kidding themselves are the folks too blinded by western propaganda to recognize the conditions on the ground.
 
FairAndUnbiased

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Brainsuker said:
The problem with Wespac theater is that it belong to US entirely. China doesn't has any foothold to reach there. They have to face the American front gate first. Which is Japan, Taiwan, and Philippine. Of course They can bomb Guam with missiles, but US can also bomb China mainland from Japan, Taiwan, and Philippine.

So, to find "Liberty" (a term in Wei Qi chess) to the east, China need to do something to Japan and Philippine. It was Duterte, but I think US already do some cleaning to secure what they got. So China needs something else. I don't know what cards that they can pull out now. Strategically, and logically, China should stir some political problem to Pinoy. But it will make them similar to US and the West.

But think about it with a chess logic. Right now US build a fortress in Philippine. They use anti China propaganda, arresting Duterte and make Philippine military stronger. Not too strong, but strong enough to make them confident to oppose China. Well, some kind of Illusion that make Pinoy feel that they can face China any time without any problem. It require time, but with the help from China and their 9 dash line claim and action, China help US to finish their fortress faster.

Well, I don't blame China for their antagonizing strategy to Pinoy. But why do I feel that US act like Zhuge Kong Ming with traps and stratagem, while China stay silent and encourage Pinoy to become their enemy. This is weird. But I think China has another solution that I can't see right now. Something that hidden from anyone, and will surprise both US and Marcos Jr. when it ready.

To me, if Pinoy is really a lost cause, China need something that can oppose Pinoy and make them some restless night. Maybe they'll can think straighter that to have an enemy, specially an enemy with the caliber of China can make their live uneasy. But with the things that China do right now, I don't think that it can give Philippine enough reason to change their heart. They still can sleep soundly, while yelling patriotic jargon that make them think that they're powerful and courageous. Because they can oppose China.
Click to expand...
its the opposite. A forward deployment strategy is risky because its basically geographically spreading your forces in a thin shell and you have to push logistics to the edge of the shell. You don't have geographic force concentration and your logistics lines are long and easy to disrupt. Yet because you have a limited number of bases, you don't have tactical force dispersion.

Pushing long distance logistics to so few points of failure is risky. Count the number of airbases that US+allies have near China, then count the number of airbases that China has on the east coast. It's not even close. Example: if Guam gets struck, its air power projection capability weakens. But once local supplies run out, repair/resupply becomes harder too, since damaging the air base in itself, a tactical objective, also results in it being harder to repair, a strategic objective. It snowballs. China doesn't have this problem; the PLA can push logistics to anywhere inside China easily and doesn't cross contested territory to do so.
 
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