PLA strike strategies in westpac HIC

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
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well, I am just looking at the minimum acceptable scenario for PRC leadership. it would be nice if PRC 'secured the international environment required to flourish' but that's a bigger goal. The immediate goal is, if Taiwan declares independence, they get regime changed. anything more is a bonus. anything less is partial defeat.

Right, well that's why I asked for what "victory" is.

Personally, I think your descriptions are more akin to a "pyrrhic victory" or a "draw," because I think China's stature and its geopolitical goals and requirements is now such that mere regime change on Taiwan in event of a conflict, is not sufficient to be called victory if its overall long term geopolitical trajectory and goals cannot be attained afterwards.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Right, well that's why I asked for what "victory" is.

Personally, I think your descriptions are more akin to a "pyrrhic victory" or a "draw," because I think China's stature and its geopolitical goals and requirements is now such that mere regime change on Taiwan in event of a conflict, is not sufficient to be called victory if its overall long term geopolitical trajectory and goals cannot be attained afterwards.
but mere regime change in Taiwan would, even at great material cost, be a huge shift in international perception and prestige.

In the process of regime changing Taiwan successfully, there are only 2 possibilities:

1. US stood aside.
2. US intervened and yet failed to secure Taiwan.

In scenario 1, the political shift would be great, yet US could actually live with it. In scenario 2, even at massive material cost like entire PLAN getting sunk, China being under total sanctions and infrastructure bombed, it would be seen like the Vietnam War: a humiliation of the incumbent superpower despite being the underdog. Vietnam was devastated and under total sanctions for 20 years but despite that the prestige they gained was translated into later economic and diplomatic gains.

In this scenario, total sanctions would be unilateral from the US and EU, the rest of the world would keep trading with China. Since they'll be exhausted from the hot war, they won't have the capability to impose a tight blockade, so they can't stop the rest of the world from trading with China peripherally, through Russia, Pakistan or Iran. It isn't even sure whether other countries will agree to go along with the sanctions since they'd be seen as exhausted and a spent force. Their non-state enemies would become emboldened. Their internal tensions would rise. Eventually, they'll drop the sanctions on China 20-30 years later just like they did for Vietnam.
 

j17wang

Senior Member
Registered Member
Your conditions of victory for the US is too generous.

The US does not require victory to be one where China undergoes "regime change" -- the outcome of a war, whereby China does not have the ability to geoeconomically or militarily challenge the US outside of China's immediate periphery and territorial airspace and waters, for multiple decades going into the future, would likely be seen as satisfactory.



The question that should be asked instead, is what is the conditions of victory for the PRC?

Conditions for chinese victory could also be the end of western multi-dominated order. If China is to be under maximum sanction/containment, this will create a parallel block of close to 2 billion OPFOR within the Russia, Pakistan, Chinese sphere.

China would also lose any remaining incentives not to transfer full technological, including nuclear and ballistic triads to potential counterstates like Iran, Venezuela, Brazil. Once you are out of the game, you dont need to play by any western rules.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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but mere regime change in Taiwan would, even at great material cost, be a huge shift in international perception and prestige.

In the process of regime changing Taiwan successfully, there are only 2 possibilities:

1. US stood aside.
2. US intervened and yet failed to secure Taiwan.

In scenario 1, the political shift would be great, yet US could actually live with it. In scenario 2, even at massive material cost like entire PLAN getting sunk, China being under total sanctions and infrastructure bombed, it would be seen like the Vietnam War: a humiliation of the incumbent superpower despite being the underdog. Vietnam was devastated and under total sanctions for 20 years but despite that the prestige they gained was translated into later economic and diplomatic gains.

In this scenario, total sanctions would be unilateral from the US and EU, the rest of the world would keep trading with China. Since they'll be exhausted from the hot war, they won't have the capability to impose a tight blockade, so they can't stop the rest of the world from trading with China peripherally, through Russia, Pakistan or Iran. It isn't even sure whether other countries will agree to go along with the sanctions since they'd be seen as exhausted and a spent force. Their non-state enemies would become emboldened. Their internal tensions would rise. Eventually, they'll drop the sanctions on China 20-30 years later just like they did for Vietnam.

Well we are talking about a conflict where US involvement happens, so scenario 1 is already off the table.

Assuming scenario 2 happens, let's say the US fails to prevent China from causing regime change on Taiwan -- the actual shift of international perception and prestige will wholly depend on what the actual outcomes of the conflict are, which in turn is a function of how much each side loses during the conflict and what each side has left standing at the end of the conflict and their ability to develop, advance and re-militarize afterwards.


Which is to say -- from the US point of view, I believe they can absolutely claim to achieve victory, even if they fail to prevent China from causing regime change on Taiwan, if that is outweighed by causing sufficient losses to China will able to preserve sufficient forces of its own, such that after the conflict resolves, the US is meaningfully ahead in geopolitical competition, in a way that does not cause any shift of international perception or prestige. In fact, it may well be that the US fails to prevent China from causing regime change on Taiwan, but the US actually gains prestige and bolsters its international prestige of itself.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Conditions for chinese victory could also be the end of western multi-dominated order. If China is to be under maximum sanction/containment, this will create a parallel block of close to 2 billion OPFOR within the Russia, Pakistan, Chinese sphere.

China would also lose any remaining incentives not to transfer full technological, including nuclear and ballistic triads to potential counterstates like Iran, Venezuela, Brazil. Once you are out of the game, you dont need to play by any western rules.
No need. Given what we know about China’s industrial capabilities, PLA will be world dominating in ten years if China switch to a war time economy and allow to build for 10 years.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
What is with these broke takes? If you want to go to war based on emotion, then you're the last person on Earth who should make that decision.

What the US is trying to do is crystal clear and you're a fool if you don't see it - it's trying to goad China into a war it's not ready for. Fortunately, the Chinese government sees and understands this perfectly well. Nothing is going to distract China from its goal of building the mightiest military mankind has ever assembled. Absolutely nothing.
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
What is with these broke takes? If you want to go to war based on emotion, then you're the last person on Earth who should make that decision.

What the US is trying to do is crystal clear and you're a fool if you don't see it - it's trying to goad China into a war it's not ready for. Fortunately, the Chinese government sees and understands this perfectly well. Nothing is going to distract China from its goal of building the mightiest military mankind has ever assembled. Absolutely nothing.

I think you are in the wrong thread.

Also, chill a bit with the confidence... "mightiest military mankind has ever assembled" -- there's no one to impress here, can we not normalize the use of superlatives please.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Point #1:

I think the starting point made on the start of the discussion is correct (I think by @Patchwork_Chimera ). If the US/Taiwan crosses a red line, China will do a first strike against Taiwan and US-Japanese forces.

If you ask "but why attack US-Japan when there is a chance they could sit it out", I will counter with, "the same reason why I didn't include S.Korea as a PLA target for a first strike". People here should be intelligent enough to understand what I am trying to convey


Point #2:

Because Taiwan declared independence, doesn't mean that China is required to wage war the next day, potentially unprepared. It can start with continuous massive war exercises and the US will be unable to keep up with the tempo. The moment the PLA deems it is time to go, one of these military exercises will be the real deal and in a few hours Taiwan/US/Japanese assets will be wiped off from the map

So what I am trying to say, the PLA will have the element of surprise and it will be China which will have the advantage of making the first move, even if Taiwan declares independence first, because as I said, China isn't obliged to start a war whenever Taiwan decides to declare independence


Point #3:

If a war happens, China's victory condition for Taiwan isn't merely a regime change, but actual unification, military base rights, police rights, foreign policy rights etc. (Basically unification). If a war doesn't happen, then China can negotiate with Taiwan, however if a war happens, Taiwan's fate is pre-determined


Point #4:

If a war happens, both sides will be damaged. However we shouldn't forget that this war would automatically put an end to the current world order from which the US depends on so heavily to maintain its hegemony (economy, politics, diplomacy). So by saying "oh well the US can just retreat from China's neighborhood and continue the war from elsewhere" ignores that at that point the US hegemonic empire is basically finished. This has too many real and practical consequences so I will just summarise them with one word, catastrophic.

At that point I would say China would be the winner in relative terms. As for blockades and all that stuff, they would only blockade themselves (while China will have the BRI) and also make the whole world their enemy.

People who dismiss the Global South, do so in their own peril.


Point #5

There is 0% chance that the US will win any war against China in the 1st + 2nd Island Chains. The more people talk about it, the more they demonstrate their ignorance.

Now if you want to talk about war expanding even further, that's fair. However, I would then counter, why does China need to immediately go out of its safe region? For blockades and all that, China can just spam produce 10000s of missiles and shoot anything hostile that moves in the water from the other side of the planet (at least far enough to reach the Indian Ocean and the Arabian sea)



Point #6:

US is a declining empire. Contrary to Western propaganda, the US is alienating more and more countries with its provocative behaviour which resembles that of a rogue state. North Korea doesn't hold a candle on the US on this aspect. By constantly provoking China on Taiwan, the US will find it out that there is much less appetite to sanction China as much as they sanctioned Russia (which even now is only the Global North, and even them are infighting now)



Final Point #7:
Pelosi proposed visit to Taiwan is as much of an "accident" as Biden has "misspoken" about defending Taiwan. Enough said. If she really comes to Taiwan a strong military response by the PLA is 100% guaranteed.
The upcoming Party Congress AND the PLA anniversary in this August, means that there is 0% chance for a strong military response to not happen


Could easily write more points but this post is already long enough so lets end this here
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Which is to say -- from the US point of view, I believe they can absolutely claim to achieve victory, even if they fail to prevent China from causing regime change on Taiwan, if that is outweighed by causing sufficient losses to China will able to preserve sufficient forces of its own, such that after the conflict resolves, the US is meaningfully ahead in geopolitical competition, in a way that does not cause any shift of international perception or prestige. In fact, it may well be that the US fails to prevent China from causing regime change on Taiwan, but the US actually gains prestige and bolsters its international prestige of itself.

I don't see any way that the US comes out with enhanced prestige if Taiwan is under Chinese sovereignty.

China will have succeeded in its stated objectives, which is to conclude an unfinished civil war with Taiwan. This will have been achieved in direct defiance of US warnings and the US military which will have suffered severe losses. The resolution of the Taiwan issue means the Chinese military shifts goals from focusing on a Taiwan scenario to distant power projection. Taiwan is no longer a blocking point on the First Island Chain and the Chinese Navy is free to venture into the Pacific Ocean and beyond.

The US will have experienced a more severe Economic Depression than China, as per Patchwork's statements.

For America's most ardent foreign supporters, the Myth of American Invincibility will be shattered.

Domestically, Americans steeped in the Myth of American Exceptionalism (and who most support the idea of saving democratic Taiwan) would experience a profound shock and crisis of confidence.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I would say that's called a draw and going for "round two".

That's not called "victory," unless one calls victory as "still having a chance to live and fight another day".

And what does Round 2 look like?

Does it look like the decades long wars which pitted the British Monarchy against the new French Republic and then the Napoleonic Empire? But the biggest difference is that China looks more like a unified Europe and is secure on land. China does have a larger population and economy than the US, so could focus on building a larger Navy as well.

Or would it look like the transformation of Imperial Germany into a Nazi Germany some 20 years later, seeking vengeance for World War 1? The biggest difference is that the US economy was far larger than Imperial Germany or Nazi Germany. In comparison, with 20 years of peace, China could aspire to grow its economy to much larger than the US.

Remember that today, China is the clear overall leader in terms of Third Industrial Revolution technologies ie. solar, wind energy, nuclear energy, electric vehicles, batteries, 5G, Artificial intelligence. If China leads the ongoing Third Industrial Revolution, you would expect China to become a hi-tech and high-income country. And with a Chinese population 4x larger than the US, you could expect an economy 4x larger. That would support a much larger military than the US.

It just reinforces the point that the US is unlikely to *win* in any US-China war.

And whilst all this is going on, the chances of catastrophic and irreversible climate change increase significantly (ie. an increase of 5 degrees centigrade)
 
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