PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

tamsen_ikard

Senior Member
Registered Member
All this debate about LRASM seems somewhat outdated, especially considering that its cousins—like the stealthy Storm Shadow and other similar missiles—have already been intercepted by air defenses in places like Russia and Pakistan.


I’m not sure what people think stealth actually is—some kind of magical invisibility cloak? Let’s be clear: stealth is just about shaping and materials that deflect radar waves away from the radar source. But this shaping can't eliminate all radar reflections—some waves will always scatter. What stealth really does is reduce the radar detection range, shrinking the radius within which an object can be detected. However, any stealth-shaped object will eventually be detected as it gets closer.


This is why I believe stealth is largely pointless on a missile. A missile must approach its target, meaning it will inevitably get closer and eventually be detected. This is fundamentally different from a stealth aircraft, which can approach, launch long-range missiles, and then retreat.


If a missile continues to close in—especially at subsonic speeds—it will be detected, and defensive missiles will be launched in response. Due to its slower speed, it becomes an easy target. Sure, instead of being detected at 100 miles out, a stealth missile might only be detected at 30 miles—but 30 miles is still enough distance to intercept a subsonic missile.

Stealth becomes even more questionable on a sea-skimming missile. The entire point of sea-skimming is to stay below radar horizons and avoid early detection due to the Earth's curvature. Such missiles are only detectable by shipborne radar at around 20–30 miles anyway. So how exactly does stealth help, if they’re going to be seen at that range regardless?

Stealth seems like a band-aid solution to the U.S.’s real limitation: the lack of large aircraft capable of carrying big supersonic or hypersonic missiles. The U.S. has relatively few bombers, and they’re tied up with multiple missions. Its fighters are smaller and can't carry large weapons. So what’s the workaround? If you can only carry small missiles, you try to make them more survivable—by adding stealth. That’s what LRASM really is.


China, for example, also has stealth missiles like the AKF-98. But that’s not its primary strike option. China leans on large, fast missiles like the YJ-12 and YJ-18—and even hypersonic ones like the YJ-21. That’s because China has the bomber force—like the H-6—and large strike aircraft like the JH-7 and J-16 to carry them.


In the end, LRASM will be judged by its combat performance—and I believe that when it’s finally used, it will be exposed as a failure.
 

Wrought

Senior Member
Registered Member
LRASM obeys the laws of physics like everything else. That is to say, it needs to be launched from a suitable platform at suitable ranges. Ships and aircraft are major assets which mass themselves in significant numbers to conduct coordinated operations. Large masses of ships and aircraft are detectable far in advance of when they engage. And I don't mean detection as in a weapons lock, but rather detection as in "there are a lot of enemies heading our way from X place at Y time." Sometime after that, the engagement happens. There is a limited window for those ships and aircraft to launch missiles. Those missiles must cover the intervening distance at a particular speed. And if you know already they are coming from a certain place at a certain time within a certain window, it is straightforward, almost trivial, to have intercepting aircraft ready and waiting. Interceptors which are faster than the missiles, which can pull up right next to them and negate their stealth at point-blank range and splash them one by one as they cruise slowly towards their target.

None of this matters if you aren't up against a peer who has the sensors and networks and aircraft to contest the battlespace. None of this mattered when LRASM was first developed over a decade ago. There were excellent reasons to develop and deploy such a missile at the time. There is nothing wrong with LRASM as a missile. The problem is that it was not designed for peer conflict. Which doesn't mean it won't work, of course, just that it's not the most optimal solution in this particular context. There is a reason the US started developing hypersonics when they realized they were heading into a peer conflict.
 

Sinnavuuty

Captain
Registered Member
This still does not solve the simple question that the radar horizon is symmetrical.

If object A is below the radar horizon for object B, then object B is below the radar horizon for object A too. Neither can detect the other because RF doesn't pass through earth and water.

So how can the missile search for a target while it is sea skimming and has a small radar horizon?
It only begins sea-skimming when it finds the target and dives into the terminal phase to delay detection and remain out of enemy radar sight for as long as possible. I think I've made this quite clear in all my previous comments.

The search for enemy emissions with its passive detection system (which increases its discretion and stealth relative to the target it's trying to find) begins in the intermediate phase of the engagement, with the missile flying at medium altitude to detect radar emitters tens or hundreds of kilometers away.
 

Sinnavuuty

Captain
Registered Member
If you changed your username to “LockheedMartinSponsored”, I would just assume you are posting ads…

The scenarios you posit just don’t make sense. As mentioned in another response, why would E-2D be flying around unmolested?

Another point, this carrier strike group would also be vulnerable to DF-21.

Something like a 054B has its own radar and engagement capability, assuming it has already evaded the ship’s long range radar and any datalinks from drones and AEW assets, it would still need to maneuver how many more km around this ship? How much range is left?

If a B1B is taking off from the US mainland, why would China not be surveilling this and not have any countermeasures in place?
No. I'm just commenting on the LRASM's true capabilities, which, far from being a perfect missile, are quite capable, despite being subsonic. If the facts bother you, you have to fight the facts, not me.

I think I've had enough of this.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
No. I'm just commenting on the LRASM's true capabilities, which, far from being a perfect missile, are quite capable, despite being subsonic. If the facts bother you, you have to fight the facts, not me.

I think I've had enough of this.

Again. Please outline why the LRASM (with wings and a tailfin) can't be detected with VHF band radar?

We have statements from various sources (both Chinese and American) which state that stealth fighters like the F-35 and F-22 (with tailfins and distinct wings) can be detected with long-wave radar at long distance.

It is up to you to disprove these statements, if you argue that the LRASM has "full stealth"
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
It only begins sea-skimming when it finds the target and dives into the terminal phase to delay detection and remain out of enemy radar sight for as long as possible. I think I've made this quite clear in all my previous comments.

The search for enemy emissions with its passive detection system (which increases its discretion and stealth relative to the target it's trying to find) begins in the intermediate phase of the engagement, with the missile flying at medium altitude to detect radar emitters tens or hundreds of kilometers away.
At altitude it is still able to be detected by forward positioned AWACs and CAP. It still has the performance of a blind to air subsonic aircraft ie a Shehad. You assume it can leisurely stay at altitude at medium range from a PLAN group.

A Shehad had a low RCS too yet how many of those are shot down?

Western example: Storm Shadow gets shot down in Ukraine all the time too and is completely unable to affect Russian advances. Ground clutter and LOS issues are also much more complex than sea.
 

supersnoop

Colonel
Registered Member
No. I'm just commenting on the LRASM's true capabilities, which, far from being a perfect missile, are quite capable, despite being subsonic. If the facts bother you, you have to fight the facts, not me.

I think I've had enough of this.
lol, no one is fighting the facts here, or you.

However, you characterize the LRASM as a "ECM black hole", "AI enhanced", having the capability .."to threaten anywhere in the planet", amongst other superlatives. With such a lofty description, expect challenges to your assertions, especially when discussion is centering around Taiwan.

The question is not about whether it is a formidable weapon, but you've made it sound like the second Death Star.
 

CMP

Senior Member
Registered Member
lol, no one is fighting the facts here, or you.

However, you characterize the LRASM as a "ECM black hole", "AI enhanced", having the capability .."to threaten anywhere in the planet", amongst other superlatives. With such a lofty description, expect challenges to your assertions, especially when discussion is centering around Taiwan.

The question is not about whether it is a formidable weapon, but you've made it sound like the second Death Star.
Sounds like the kind of uber-hyperbole Bharat 1 rupee army are prone to use. Has Lockheed outsourced their marketing to India? I know Intel already has as of the new Singaporean CEO.
 

zlixOS

New Member
Registered Member
Sounds like the kind of uber-hyperbole Bharat 1 rupee army are prone to use. Has Lockheed outsourced their marketing to India? I know Intel already has as of the new Singaporean CEO.
Bro we can just BRAHMOS their J-35s before they even take off bro, we can BRAHMOS their runways and airbases after 1 minute and just return back to base bro, China copied our BRAHMOS bro, we can BRAHMOS the entire Pakistan Air Force bro, the Su-30MKI is a 4.5th gen jet because it can carry BRAHMOS bro.
brahmos brahmos brahmos. why doesnt usa buy brahmos then?

AMCA is just 10 years away bro, first flight in 2035 bro, we haven't seen a single part for the aircraft and we can't produce a real 4.5th gen jet but trust me bro, AMCA, it'll be better than J-35 bro, AMCA 5th gen AMCA 5.5th gen AMCA 6th gen AMCA 6.5th gen AMCA BEAST MODE.
amca amca amca. amca where?


"let me tell you a few facts, this is obvious, it is quite simple, 'strong, ferocious, brave', we will give them hell, 'Su-57 isn't real 5th gen'?: shut up wumao!"

You can't argue with these people. Tell them that their favourite weapon is anything less than outerversal in strength and/or can't solo the entire PLA twice over and they will do nought but cry and scream.
 
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