PLA Strategy in a Taiwan Contingency

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
It is not just TSMC. You also have UMC, Powerchip, Mediatek, Realtek, ASUSTeK, Gigabyte, MSI, Quanta, Compal, Foxconn, ADATA, etc.
Out of those companies, they are well known in their niche at best. Mediatek and Realtek have never put out anything on the class of HiSilicon/Huawei, so not really cutting edge. Of course I admit it is a bit "doomer", there are still those companies you mentioned, also others like AUO. However, if the big dog is no longer an Alpha, then there is going to be a knock on. The economy is going to be stalled like Japan.

You go to Taipei 20 years ago, the streets were choked with pollution from 2-stroke engine mopeds. It is not too different today. Shenzhen 20 years ago was full of crappy knockoff marketplaces, Temu IRL basically. Now it is crazy high tech. What does the next 20 years look like?
 

bsdnf

Junior Member
Registered Member
An infographic summarizing a specific scenario from the recent wargame, one that Shilao praised as a "good picture"

View attachment 154180

Wargaming PLA's Route to Invade Taiwan – Key 4 Days

Legend:
  • PLA: Deploys two amphibious forces, first seizing Penghu, then landing on Taiwan’s east coast
  • ROC Forces: Block the Xueshan Range tunnels and the Beiyi Highway to prevent PLA from directly reaching Taipei
  • U.S.: Sends troops to assist in securing Taiwan's sea routes and maintain supplies imports
Day 1: Outlying Islands Attacked, Airports Bombed
  • The PLA launches helicopter raids and seizes control of Pengjia Islet, Lanyu (Orchid Island), Green Island, Wang’an, and Qimei, deploying missiles, drones, rockets, and other equipment
  • Jiashan and Hualien airports are struck by long-range rockets and rendered inoperable
Day 2: Penghu Falls, Communications Cut
  • Penghu comes under heavy fire, cutting off communications; the CCP announces the "recovery" of Penghu
  • Large numbers of drones are deployed to Green Island and Lanyu airports; massive drone presence appear over the Yunlin-Chiayi-Tainan region
Day 3: PLA Lands in Huadong and Hengchun
  • The PLA attacks and launches amphibious landings on the Hengchun Peninsula, Taitung, Hualien, and Yilan
Day 4: Su’ao and Hualien Ports Captured
  • The PLA captures Su’ao and Hualien ports and deploys air defense and anti-ship missiles to Eastern Taiwan
PLA Attack Region Assessment
View attachment 154179



Also, I had a Ctrl+Z bug on this site when working with tables (or heavy formatting). A single undo will wipe out a large chunk of changes, and Ctrl+Y won’t bring it back
This war game is interesting because they finally acknowledged the possibility of the PLA landing in east coast, deploying anti-ship & anti air missiles in Hualien to deter the US fleet & aircraft from approaching. Use the terrain and transportation conditions in the east to prevent the Taiwan army from counterattacking. Which I pointed this out a few months ago when the PLA barge show up
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
There's no way to paint this situation as one where getting more ASML would be helpful to China. The question is simple: do you treat drug withdrawal by putting the patient on more drugs, especially when the patient is making visible progress against addiction?

Lithography machines are not drugs, they are tools.



There's a countdown on that clock and that's the urgency. When that countdown stops or goes back up, people relax.

You'd be surprised at corporate desperation and greed. Desperation drove them to make the fastest progress on the planet at the most difficult technology there is. Greed will make them put that project on the backburner to chase easy fast profits now with ASML's machines.

That is not the mentality at SMIC or Huawei. These companies expect technology development to be difficult and time-consuming.
So why do they continue doing it?

They know that there are so many competitors going the easy route on technology, which means barely any profits.
But if they master a difficult technology, there are no other competitors and they get to charge 100%+ profit margins.


Good. That means that if we use them for everything, they debug faster. You wanna learn a language in no time, put yourself in a society where no one speaks your native tongue. If we put ASML as the primary use and our native machines as a backup project, they debug slower, so slow that they can fall behind, become hopeless, and discarded. Don't forget, every dollar you pay ASML is money injected into their system to make them innovate faster and that's a dollar taken away from Chinese systems' developmental funds. It's double trouble to buy ASML when you have any local machines that are usable at all.

If ASML DUV machines are unbanned, I don't see it affecting the speed that domestic lithography machines get debugged.
Those domestic machines are already being used in production fabs at 3? companies.

And I expect there is already a large list of improvements being worked upon for the next version, but they need time to implement and then test.
My understanding is that additional financing or personnel, will not speed up the process.

---

As for ASML EUV machines, if China were able to acquire them, my guess is that this will speed up with development process of the Chinese version(s). There will be a working machine to examine and understand.

Remember that ASML sells EUV machines with something like a 100% profit margin.
So if you can develop and sell EUV machines you too can start making 100% profit margins.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Lithography machines are not drugs, they are tools.
They are weaponized tools that are like drugs to industry. I know that analogy couldn't have flew over your head like that.
That is not the mentality at SMIC or Huawei. These companies expect technology development to be difficult and time-consuming.
So why do they continue doing it?
Because they MUST. Don't change that by giving them alternatives.
They know that there are so many competitors going the easy route on technology, which means barely any profits.
No. Easy route is to buy foreign, and make profits while becoming dependent on them.
But if they master a difficult technology, there are no other competitors and they get to charge 100%+ profit margins.
OK so you want there to be no other competitors in China, right? Or you want to insert ASML so they know they can't charge high profits and see reason to give up or not invest? It seems like you're arguing against yourself.
If ASML DUV machines are unbanned, I don't see it affecting the speed that domestic lithography machines get debugged.
Those domestic machines are already being used in production fabs at 3? companies.
It's an unsupported hope. I explained the mechanism that debugging is faster the more you use it. So using it less debugs it slower.
And I expect there is already a large list of improvements being worked upon for the next version, but they need time to implement and then test.
My understanding is that additional financing or personnel, will not speed up the process.
Even if that is mostly true, and it can't be 100% true, and additional financing will speed up ASML's development too.
As for ASML EUV machines, if China were able to acquire them, my guess is that this will speed up with development process of the Chinese version(s). There will be a working machine to examine and understand.
I think that China has many approaches to this and the prototypes are in deep development. It is extremely difficult to reverse-engineer one of those things and to adapt its approach to your approach. We don't need that distraction. We are not chasing them like ICE cars; we are developing our own leap-frog tech like in EVs.
Remember that ASML sells EUV machines with something like a 100% profit margin.
All the more reason NOT to buy from them and give them more funding to improve.
So if you can develop and sell EUV machines you too can start making 100% profit margins.
OK, we can when we do, but I have a feeling that we will be undercutting their prices heavily to remove their stranglehold on the industry.
 

00CuriousObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
Anyone know what is going on? and what does the term “Qing Niao/青鳥" means? I'm very much out of the loop.

It means DPP supporters, similar to 小粉绿/"little greenies"

2024年5月17日起,邻近立法院的台北市青岛东路发生群众集结示威,表达反对立法院审议中之数项法案及其审议程序,该系列法案涉及立法院职权及花东地区之交通建设,此社会运动被称为青鸟行动。该名称源自5月24日的集会,用以回避“青岛”一词在社群媒体传播时受算法之潜在干扰,改用字形相似之词汇,而“青鸟”亦带有温柔与希望、自由与正义之隐喻,在此同时该名称的采用者数度将其编入维基百科始广为人知。

青鸟行动在2024年5、6月结束后,当年底又出现了冬季青鸟在台北。而“青鸟”一词也逐渐衍伸至对抗中国国民党与台湾民众党在立法院提出争议法案的社会运动支持者,一些场合中也被泛指为台派、民主进步党的支持者。

Starting on May 17, 2024, crowds gathered to protest on Qingdao East Road in Taipei City, near the Legislative Yuan. They expressed opposition to several bills under review by the legislature, as well as to the legislative process itself. These bills involved the powers of the Legislative Yuan and transportation infrastructure projects in the Hualien-Taitung (Huadong) region. The protest movement became known as the "Bluebird Movement."

The name "Bluebird" originated from a rally held on May 24, chosen to avoid potential algorithmic interference on social media with the term "Qingdao" by using a visually similar alternative. Additionally, “Bluebird” carries connotations of gentleness and hope, freedom and justice. The name gained wider recognition after several contributors incorporated it into Wikipedia entries.

After the Bluebird Movement concluded in May and June of 2024, a resurgence called the “Winter Bluebird” appeared in Taipei later that year. Over time, the term “Bluebird” gradually evolved to refer more broadly to supporters of social movements opposing controversial bills introduced by the Kuomintang (KMT) and Taiwan People’s Party in the Legislative Yuan. In some contexts, it has also become a general label for pro-Taiwan or Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) supporters.
 

Nevermore

Junior Member
Registered Member
After watching Iran break through Israel's air defense system, I realized that if PLA launches missile attacks on Taiwan, Taiwan's air defense system may be paralyzed within a few days. All they can do is hide their weapons in the mountains or city bunkers to engage in guerrilla warfare and only attack high-value targets.As for landing operations, I highly doubt the feasibility of modern warfare landing operations, as armored units and landing ships seem too fragile.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
After watching Iran break through Israel's air defense system, I realized that if PLA launches missile attacks on Taiwan, Taiwan's air defense system may be paralyzed within a few days. All they can do is hide their weapons in the mountains or city bunkers to engage in guerrilla warfare and only attack high-value targets.As for landing operations, I highly doubt the feasibility of modern warfare landing operations, as armored units and landing ships seem too fragile.
Taiwan is a smaller target and China is going to be lobby way more missiles from the opening wave onward. It will be much less time than a few days. If Taiwan decides to hide its mobile air defenses to take potshots from the mountains the western flank where 80% of the population lives will be exposed and landing will be uncontested because ROC ground forces won’t be able to mass troops to defend landing points if they are exposed to attacks from above.
 

bebops

Junior Member
Registered Member
"I highly doubt the feasibility of modern warfare landing operations"

After heavy bombardment on everything. I will do a sea blockade. After several months pass, alot of army unit will surrender without a fight. No food no electricity no oil will force them to surrender.
 

PLAwatcher12

New Member
Registered Member
After watching Iran break through Israel's air defense system, I realized that if PLA launches missile attacks on Taiwan, Taiwan's air defense system may be paralyzed within a few days. All they can do is hide their weapons in the mountains or city bunkers to engage in guerrilla warfare and only attack high-value targets.As for landing operations, I highly doubt the feasibility of modern warfare landing operations, as armored units and landing ships seem too fragile.
I do agree, Irans missiles are alot older and less capable than Chinese ones. And Israel also has possibly the most layered and one of the most battle tested AD systems in the world. Taiwan’s AD capabilities are a lot less than Israel’s with their main AD unit being mostly the patriot system what in Ukraine has been able to only intercept about 14% of all ballistic missiles with about 40% in total missiles being intercepted, the rest of their systems is the sky bow and NASAM what are alot shorter range. Taiwan also wouldn’t have the US or NATO helping them shoot down missiles and then China has fighter jets that can launch missiles, something that Ian doesn’t have and China will also be launching missiles and drone attacks during the day, something Iran doesn’t do. Anyways my point is China will be able to do it in less than a few days most likely.
 
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4Tran

New Member
Registered Member
I do agree, Irans missiles are alot older and less capable than Chinese ones. And Israel also has possibly the most layered and one of the most battle tested AD systems in the world. Taiwan’s AD capabilities are a lot less than Israel’s with their main AD unit being mostly the patriot system what in Ukraine has been able to only intercept about 14% of all ballistic missiles with about 40% in total missiles being intercepted, the rest of their systems is the sky bow and NASAM what are alot shorter range. Taiwan also wouldn’t have the US or NATO helping them shoot down missiles
It's even worse than that for Taiwan. Taiwan is fully within range of China's rocket artillery so cruise missiles and ballistic missiles can be saved for more distant targets. It's just not economical to try to intercept rockets with air defence, but these rockets are sufficient to knock out all of Taiwan's radars, air defence, anti-ship missiles, and more. And as all Taiwanese aircraft are vulnerable to getting picked off by PL-15s and PL-17s, Taiwan doesn't have many military options.
 
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