PLA Small arms

ansy1968 said:

hi TerraN EmpirE

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I seem to be a popular fellow today.

ansy1968 said:

CHINA SNIPER RIFLE CSR-7

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?? I haven’t heard of that. I can only figure it’s a rebranding of the CS/LR4A that the Chinese are known to have sold the Philippines.
I haven’t seen much that makes it a real standout More a heart breaker. Bolt action polymer bodied metallic chassis sniper rifle in 7.62x51mm about the norm for that class after AI came out.

No one has posted this yet, just saw it on Weibo, it is a new full-auto GL for the PLA.
I think it will replace the 04GL.

There is a short gif showing it in action, this link should work I think:

Mt1701d said:

In terms of weight, fair enough, much of the savings from ammo would shift to the gun itself, especially the coil or rail and battery, tho for the battery part I would argue whether battery development could mitigate the issue of weight vs the ‘power’ provided vs endurance of the battery to power the main coil/rail as well as other toys the operator would put on the weapon.

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plawolf said:

I think if the battery weight issue could be addressed, coil/rail guns could provide significant advantages over conventional firearms.

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Skywatcher said:

Another battery problem is that current lithium batteries have the nasty tendency to combust if they get overheated.

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It would require a huge breakthrough in battery tech that is the dream for any battery maker light weight, powerful, Safe. All of which doesn’t seem likely in the near to long term. Basically call me when we are Star Trek.
even if you could Getthe battery down. The mechenisum just doesn’t have the emph of a conventional round today. Those coil guns in the videos were as large a a modern sub machine gun yet produce velocities on par with extreme low velocity pocket pistols. It would demand a huge jump technically to match an MP5 let alone an M4 or NGSW.
A battery fire on your cell phone today is more likely than a magazine cook off. More dangerous to.

Mt1701d said:

sound issue, yes I agree with the sound generated via the projectile compressing the air thus there would be a sound regardless. But on the other front for some cases you would need ammo with lower powder charges to produce the subsonic effect, as well as the need of adding the suppressor/silencer to lower the sound of the weapon. For this I think there is an argument for development of coil guns (not rail guns, as rail guns will have an almost unavoidable friction issue generating sound) as the main driver behind the energy of the projectile is not the expansion of gases which is also partly responsible for the sound, the construction/design of the barrel itself could mitigate much of the issue. Thus having one weapon system that can cater for general use and spec ops without adding or changing certain aspects of the weapon system.

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As said they already exist in conventional weapons. Integrally suppressed barrels Exist already, cartridges with a piston that propel the bullet by that force and not the direct gas expansion But that in the cartridge. Suppressed rifles can fire super sonic in many cases already. Basically This isn’t adding new capabilities. The cost of production would likely favor SF if at all.

plawolf said:

The main advantages I can think of would be higher muzzle velocity/accuracy; less to no recoil, which again aids accuracy; lighter weight (battery packs could be backpack mounted, thereby redistributing the bulk of the weight of the weapon away from the arms, these could be connected to the weapon via cables, or maybe even just use wireless charging if the technology advanced enough); low to no sound

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as already stated there is no sound advantage it would be just as loud as a conventional weapon in the same class. Recoil would still be a factor as Newtonian physics still applies. For every action an equal yet opposite reaction. Fire a gun recoil. Coil or conventional you are propelling a mass at high velocity out the muzzle that Action will still factor in the but end. Accuracy isn’t a matter of the weapon as it is the shooter. Mechanically Humans are the limitations of getting super sub MOA. A battery pack is going to happen eventually to the infantry, however This doesn’t seem like a realistic practical weapon. Conventional small arms seem the foreseeable future.

Mt1701d said:

For the variability of ammo, this is where I think the underestimation is the greatest, for the bullet itself yes there would be the problem of whether the bullet can take the forces applied, thus we have different types of bullet, but also different type of powder loads and also different calibers of bullets. If the driving force (conversationally would be the chemical reaction of the powder) of the bullet can varied with a flick of a switch the only viable becomes the bullet/actual projectile, this would allow the soldier to carry a greater number of bullets in general along with bullets for specialised use if necessary without having to think about all the other factors. This also have longer term effects when thinking about production. You only really need to think about making different types of projectiles, without thinking about the casing, powder and everything else involved. Also consider costs, in a coil gun system the saving from ammo shifts to the weapon, well you might say that penny per bullet but when talking about the amount of projectiles expended this adds up, call me a bean counter If you want. But this is a math problem with the main consideration of whether the gun can have the reliability needed.
Further on with ammo argument, in order to use different ammo (in this case caliber) you will need different weapons systems, tho there is already standardisation done on this front a coil gun could further that standardisation efforts. I.e. choosing a single caliber with different density projectile for different purposes, with modularisation on the gun (power systems, barrel length/design etc) as the main variable.

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In theory yes the battery is recharged saving money on ammo. Yet the bullet is still a bullet. You still need specific types for specific roles. You can’t fire an AP round and expect it to work like a shotgun shell. The variable argument works for Directed energy weapons not so for coil guns.
next caliber still matters as the mass and density of the projectile needs to have enough size and surface area to achieve higher velocity maintain kinetic energy and penetration vs the target. This is why You have had weapons in the .30 caliber push longer projectiles to match longer cases. Why Tank guns of 125mm and 120mm replaced 105mm despite the fact that they use sub caliber Sabot vs other tanks. The Rods needed to go up to match the thicker armor of their targets.

Mt1701d said:

There is also the consideration on accuracy, which I forgot in the original post, for lower power this can be mitigated by mechanically complex systems like kriss vector and laugo alien, but this still doesn’t not eliminate the issue of the reciprocating mass affecting the shots, and for larger small arms it’s a larger problem. Before you say well there is still recoil, yes but the amount of recoil will be far lower then have a mass (bolt + bolt carrier) slamming into the shoulder

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the factors that Largo and Kriss target are not accuracy But primarily repeatability and control. Recoil would still exist for a coil gun. You still have masses moving around. To chamber a round when you fire the round. It’s still there. The biggest impediment to accurate fire is the human factor. If you want to fix that... Robocop or Terminator. You have to change the human or replace it. With a machine. Neither is realistic. For a realistic near to long term Tracking point or Smart shooter. Depending on how far you want to shoot. Farther than a mile and a half a smart bullet.

plawolf said:

The biggest potential advantage would be almost unlimited munitions supply if solar and/or wireless power transmission undertake a revolutionary leap.

Imagine having a weapon that could self charge the battery via solar panels or be remotely charged by rear echelon support units. The soldiers would just need to carry the bullets, which would be only a fraction of the weight of conventional ammunition.

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Battery take time to recharge, especially by solar power which may not always be available.
Bullets are already loosing weight. The weapons in this case would add the weight back on as the weapon would weigh more by the mechanism used. And then the Catch all counters of EMP and Cyber attack those potentially knocks out the Exo suit and rifle.
It’s interesting tech for battles on Mars in 2105 but here I try to focus on now to 2065 on earth. Those are conventional weapons. Perhaps with decades of research coil guns could be practical weapons. But today and for the foreseeable future they are Sci-fi novelty.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

I seem to be a popular fellow today.

?? I haven’t heard of that. I can only figure it’s a rebranding of the CS/LR4A that the Chinese are known to have sold the Philippines.
I haven’t seen much that makes it a real standout More a heart breaker. Bolt action polymer bodied metallic chassis sniper rifle in 7.62x51mm about the norm for that class after AI came out.

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hi TerraN_EmpirE

Well its being advertise here as a good sniper rifle, a first for a modern CHINESE RIFLE to be among the world class. Since you had such great knowledge about guns hope you share and evaluate it for us.

I can only gage it based on what is known of it. The CS/LR4A seems pretty good for the class. But you have to understand that from all practical aspects of the weapon is built to quality standards which stated 1 MOA indicates then the deciding factor would be the Optic and ammo. If it’s the rifle I think it is then it’s limited by the ammo 7.62x51mm to a range around 600 meters vs a man sized target plus or minus. However I don’t have anything on the optic or much more beyond that.

hi TerraN_EmpirE

Thanks, It is said that the shot is made at 900 to a thousand meter and the optics is good cause it was done at night with a lot of debris.

1km night shot? Source?

Seems rather far fetched as there aren’t any rifle mountable night vision optics that can even see a man sized target that far out unless under very specific and favourable conditions.

Might be possible with really high end thermal, but I didn’t know the PLA dropped that kind of coin on infantry optics.

plawolf said:

1km night shot? Source?

Seems rather far fetched as there aren’t any rifle mountable night vision optics that can even see a man sized target that far out unless under very specific and favourable conditions.

Might be possible with really high end thermal, but I didn’t know the PLA dropped that kind of coin on infantry optics.

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hi plawolf

I dont have the source, but what i've heard (from DUTERTE SPEECH attend by the CHINESE AMBASSADOR) from MARAWI campaign that it was used effective in eliminating HAPSILON during the night encounter. Need your opinion regarding the veracity of the report, thanks.

here is the news report


Sniper rifles from China used in killing Hapilon, Maute – Duterte

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Updated October 18, 2017, 9:20 AM
By Genalyn D. Kabiling


The sniper rifles donated by China were used to kill the top two terror suspects in Marawi City, President Duterte revealed on Tuesday.

The President thanked both China and Russia for the military assistance given to the Philippine military to enhance its anti-terrorism capability.




President Rodrigo Duterte (PRESIDENTIAL PHOTO/MANILA BULLETIN)


“China, dalawang beses na naglipad dito para sa… And ‘yung sniper nila was of great help. ‘Yung mahaba nila na sniper. ‘Yun ang nakakuha kay ano — ‘yung dalawa ng madaling araw. Yun ang nakakuha [China has delivered to us twice. Their sniper [rifles] were a great help. Those were used to neutralize the two suspects early morning (of Monday)],” he said, referring to terror suspects Isnilon Hapilon and Omar Maute killed by troops last Monday.

Duterte, who earlier declared the liberation of Marawi from terrorists, claimed that sniper weapon could make a kill shot at one kilometer.


“Walang hangin pagka umaga. ‘Yun ang nagamit natin. Malaking tulong ‘yung ibinigay, [There was no wind every morning so we used that rifle. It was a great help],” he said.

Last June, China donated more than 3,000 sniper and assault rifles to the Philippine military to help fight Islamic militants in Mindanao.

The President said the weapon shipment highlighted the improved relations between the Philippines and China.

Recently, he announced that Russia is expected to give weapons and equipment to the Philippine military later this month.

He said Russia would give 5,000 Kalashnikov assault rifles to the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP), a military assistance offered during his brief visit to Moscow last May. At least 20 military trucks would also be donated by Russia to the AFP.


“Tutal dumating na ‘yung armas na ibinigay ng Russia, ‘yung AK-47. Libre ha,” Duterte said. (The weapons from Russia have arrived – the AK-47 – and they cost us nothing.)



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He said the sniper rifle could make a kill at 1km, which is perfectly reasonable, not specifically that those terrorist leaders were killed at 1km distance.

Also, the kills were made in early morning, which isn’t night time, meaning normal optics could be used, so the rifle could be used to full effective range rather than being limited to optics range, as would be the case with a shot in true night.