PLA Small arms


Mohsin77

Junior Member
Registered Member
not giving you something that is a huge step up vs existing service pistols.
A >60% decrease in muzzle rise, without any aftermarket kit installed, is (by any standard) a "huge step up." I doubt any operator/LEO would disagree, since they have to fire on targets that actually move and shoot back. The problem is the pricetag (which is why I said it's just an IPSC toy right now). But that should be solved by bringing in other manufacturers.

The features here were designed for a target shooter putting rounds in a ISPC paper center ring at 25 meters .
Only that silly integrated red-dot. But the inherent reduction in muzzle-rise is good for everyone, including operators. Suppressors also play well with this system, which is another advantage for military applications.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Sure at the cost of a totally new gun. Both the features you are hyping have been around for a century of pistol design. what is really interesting is the way it mounts that “Silly” Red dot. By the way that Red dot will give your average shorter a <50% Increase in combat accuracy and acquisition.
If you really want to improve the average LEO or Mil shooter then give them a Carbine not a pistol. I don’t care if a M4A1, HK416, QBZ95, MP5K with stock or a Glock with a B+T Stock kit that would give you a huge increase in effective fire.
I know but TE.... look it’s a nice product for a race gun. SHOT show does this every year. You get these Wunderwaffe the Hudson H9, Arsenal Strike One aka Archon B, Kriss Vector, Keltech Shotguns. Sometimes they really are worth it. Sometimes the whole thing goes bust. Most of the time it’s a very niche product.
The problem with the standard combat pistol for LEO or Military shooters isn’t the Pistol it’s the shooter. Modern firearms are capable of far more mechanical accuracy than the operator is. The ISPC Shooter can take more advantage of this setup as they are on a calm range shooting as competition.
A Combat shooter is shooting for their life. Under fight or flight, with tunnel vision, an adrenaline high and operating on the reptile brain. This is why Combat long arms and hand guns often have long sponge triggers with a lot of take up because they are intended to prevent accidental shooting or to ensure that the shooter only shoots when they need to. It’s also why Combat rifles are very simple with as few moving parts as possible.
Under stress of combat LEO officers have been found to under estimate the number of shots fired. In Combat Soldiers have been found to over state there accuracy, Often leading to claims of ineffective bullets. After all How could they have missed??? Surely the enemy dragged away the dead or their thick winter jackets stopped the rounds or the bullets just don’t work... Training is a major factor in the effectiveness some tools can assist farther, but from practical reality the best tools to aid are those that make the shooter’s tasks more intuitive. That’s ergonomics like a stock and easy to use controls or sighting systems like red dots that allow the shooter to use both eyes to find and engage targets faster than with the traditional iron sights. Dot sights also work well with suppressors as they often sit high enough to clear the suppressor can.
Because most handgun combat shooters are not able to milk the mechanical accuracy in combat, A hand gun like the Alien is over kill. Something far more simple like a Sig M18, Glock 17, Groch, Qsz 92G, CZ75, hell even the Yeet Cannon will be just about as effective at putting there respective rounds into a target the size of a human torso at combat ranges.
As such the military and LE Agency will choose something cheaper every-time and it’s likely to remain that the Browning tilting barrel will remain the king of barrel types for combat handguns.

Again I say If you really want to try and give the LEO or Military shooter a way up there accuracy give them a carbine with a red dot. Farther I reiterate that if you really want to use the capabilities of the Alien make it a Submachine Pistol. Now combine those two thoughts. Submachine pistols are notoriously inaccurate and for beating up dots with a high rate of fire. One means of trying to fix this has been adding a stock often in the form of a combination holster stock, this comes at the cost of a weaker stock that can cause the holster to be damaged. Most mount low on the pistol exacerbating the muzzle flip issue. If you tried to add a dot the dot is both beat up by recoil and hard to aim keep on target due to the movement of the slide.
A higher mounted side folding stock like the B+T USW and the Dot mounting system already on the pistol would fix those two issues. Of course for combat use a full carbine is far superior. The only place such a weapon as actual military relevance is as a PDW for vehicle crews particularly aviators.
Armored vehicle crews and helicopter crews generally can get away with using a short carbine like a AKS74U QBZ95 even M4A1. But jet pilots in ejector seats not so much. The weapons they have have to be either stowed on their person in their gear or inside a survival kit located under the seat. Now I don’t know the size of the Russian or Chinese seats. I imagine that there seats are the same size and that they wouldn’t be much bigger than the 16”x14”x3.5” of the US models. And that is a problem. because in there conventional configuration AKS74U, QBZ95 and QBZ95B are too big. Even FN P90 is to big, HK MP7A1 might just fit.
The US M4 recently got a pass because the USAF found a commercial vender who created a takedown kit for the M4 that allows M4 to fit by separating into two parts. So a downed pilot can open the kit pull the protective covers and mate the barrel and handguard to the receiver unfold the pistol grip and irons extend the stock and load the weapon.
None of the current Chinese SMG’s would fit that package. The Russian Stechkin does. Has do a few of their Submachine pistols including the PP-2000. The old Vz61 Skorpion does, very nicely to.
 

Mohsin77

Junior Member
Registered Member
Sure at the cost of a totally new gun.
Again with the same point which isn't even relevant to what I said... I don't want this stupidly expensive "alien" toy, I want Glock/Norinco etc. to make me a cheaper mass produced version of this system with the same >60% reduction in muzzle rise.

If you really want to improve the average LEO or Mil shooter then give them a Carbine not a pistol.
???? What? It's not carbine OR a pistol, it's carbine AND a pistol. It's not a mutually exclusive choice. I don't even know what your ranting about right now, and I don't care for it.
 

plawolf

Brigadier
For LEO, maybe the extra accuracy is worthwhile (especially as prices fall with increased volume), for military, it’s not really worth the price since sidearms are fallback options and shouldn’t be used much at all.

Now, as TE mentioned before, such a system might be more interesting in a SMG setup, potentially as a 5.7mm full auto pistol, where the recoil reduction would really start to stand out in full auto mode. 5.7mm should also allow you to get 30+ rounds in a mag that it’s ridiculously large or heavy.

If they can maintain target pistol accuracy and achieve full auto, with a good reliability and not ridiculous price, they might just have a military winner as something accurate enough to use suppressed to take out sentries quietly; but also have good full auto controllability to work as a pocket SMG if/when things go loud.
 

Mohsin77

Junior Member
Registered Member
For LEO, maybe the extra accuracy is worthwhile (especially as prices fall with increased volume), for military, it’s not really worth the price since sidearms are fallback options and shouldn’t be used much at all.
If the prices come down and major manufacturers begin producing this system, then the same argument would apply for the military. Also, the statement "sidearms shouldn't be used much" is a moot point. It's your fallback. You don't get to choose. When your primary fails in the middle of a firefight, your handgun is all you have.

I was listening to Andy Strumph's podcast recently, where he and another Seal were describing some aspects of the selection process for DEVGRU. The first step (after the PT stuff) is pistol proficiency. If you don't make it through that stage, you don't even get to the carbine. They said most guys get filtered out at the pistol evolution, before they even get to the carbine. I think I remember listening to John Mcphee saying pistol proficiency is the first part of DELTA selection too. The filtration is mostly due to safety violations though because these guys have already mastered accuracy with the pistol. The point though, is that you still have to master the pistol, it's not an option. And pistol accuracy is actually harder to achieve than the carbine at CQB distances. Personally, it took me much longer to learn to fire tight groups with a pistol, compared to a carbine. Pistol shooting is much more unforgiving, and a >60% decrease in muzzle rise is a massive advancement.

... again, all I'm saying is that the prices should be brought down so that this advancement can be mainstreamed. I don't see why anyone would reasonably argue against that.

Now, as TE mentioned before, such a system might be more interesting in a SMG setup, potentially as a 5.7mm full auto pistol, where the recoil reduction would really start to stand out in full auto mode. 5.7mm should also allow you to get 30+ rounds in a mag that it’s ridiculously large or heavy.
Sure, build it in an SMG as well, no one is arguing against that. But that shouldn't stop the development of more hanguns in this configuration.

If they can maintain target pistol accuracy and achieve full auto, with a good reliability and not ridiculous price, they might just have a military winner as something accurate enough to use suppressed to take out sentries quietly; but also have good full auto controllability to work as a pocket SMG if/when things go loud.
What works to improve full-auto accuracy also works to improve single-fire accuracy, and the latter is used 99.9% of the time. Also, you don't use suppressors to "take out sentries quietly," that only happens in the movies. As soon as the shooting starts (suppressed or not) everyone is alerted, especially in CQB environments. But you would still much rather have your team next to you firing with a suppressor... it's just less annoying and keeps your senses sharper, while also helping with communication, even with active hearing protection.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I was listening to Andy Strumph's podcast recently, where he and another Seal were describing some aspects of the selection process for DEVGRU. The first step (after the PT stuff) is pistol proficiency. If you don't make it through that stage, you don't even get to the carbine. They said most guys get filtered out at the pistol evolution, before they even get to the carbine. I think I remember listening to John Mcphee saying pistol proficiency is the first part of DELTA selection too
Those are elite CT based units originally founded for extreme CQB Hostage rescue. IE counter air hijacking and maritime hijacking.
As such for them the pistol can be the primary weapon, they have far higher levels of pistol proficiency than general infantry Officers, NCO, Armed vehicle crews and specialists.
For those highly specialized highly trained personnel who fire more pistol ammo in a week then most soldiers fire in a year. Such a weapon makes a ton more sense. Because those guys can milk it. They are like surgeons with a pistol.
Delta was known for a long time to give their operators a special fund to custom build a 1911A1 for them. Today thats likely a Custom Glock. French GIGN as another case are known to have had a totally custom built revolver for them.

In that mode sometimes the pistol is less a fall back and more a primary, because of the closeness or the situation. Delta and Devgru are known to be trained to operate undercover for infiltration in places where an M4A1 would standout. Because on their infiltration of there operation they might be in civilian dress. That’s because the rules of CT ops are different and the lines between soldier and spy are blurry.
 

Mohsin77

Junior Member
Registered Member
Right, and that's my point. There is a use-case in the military. All I said was that this 'alien' toy pistol should be looked at by all manufacturers and they should start mainstreaming the benefits and bring the price down. There really isn't any point in arguing against that, it's a win-win for everyone.
 

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